Today’s world of work is more human centered than ever. This brings both challenges — such as the increased need for soft (i.e., human) skills — and opportunities — such as greater flexibility in how we work and learn, as well as a greater emphasis on employee wellness and well-being.
In this episode of the Business of Learning, we spoke with Jen Dudeck, chief people officer at RedHat, and Bayan Qoul, CPTM, learning and development (L&D) specialist at Expedia Group, to learn more about how training can support a human-centered workplace.
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Additional Resources:
- Article: 8 Ways Training Professionals Can Leverage Empathy for a Human-centered Workplace
- Article: 7 Practical Design Ideas for Human-centric Virtual Training
- Article: Navigating Difficult Conversations: a Human-centric Approach
- Podcast: Developing Modern Leaders
To learn how you can support your people across all phases of their careers, download the complimentary Employee Journey Map job aid below, courtesy of Training Industry Courses’ Agile Certification for HR and L&D.
The transcript for this episode follows:
Sarah Gallo:
Welcome to The Business of Learning, the learning leader’s podcast from Training Industry.
Michelle Eggleston Schwartz:
Hi, welcome back to The Business of Learning. I’m Michelle Eggleston Schwartz, editor in chief at Training Industry, here with my co-host Sarah Gallo, a senior editor.
Sarah Gallo:
Welcome. Before we begin today’s episode, here’s a brief message from our sponsor, Training Industry research.
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Michelle Eggleston Schwartz:
Gone are the days when our personal and professional lives were neatly separated. The COVID-19 pandemic has drastically humanized work for people across industries, all around the world. Babies made their way into virtual meetings, living rooms became conference rooms and organizations quickly realized that employees needed support and flexibility in how they work and learn. And as with any shift, employees and leaders need training and development on how to navigate this new world of work. So today we’re excited to hear from Jen Dudeck, chief people officer at Red Hat, and Bayan Qoul, L&D specialist at Expedia Group and a certified professional in training management, on how learning leaders can support a human-centered workplace. Jen, Bayan, welcome to the podcast.
Bayan Qoul:
Thank you.
Jennifer Dudeck:
Well, thank you for having us.
Sarah Gallo:
Yes, welcome. Well, before we dive in, I think it would be helpful if you could each define what we mean by a human-centered workplace. What does that really look like in practice?
Jennifer Dudeck:
Hey, this is Jen. I’m the chief people officer at Red Hat. So for us, a human-centered workplace in practice means that we really start with the individual. We start with the individual understanding one, who that individual is as a human being, i.e human-centered workplace; where they’re at in their life; their lived experiences; their perspectives. And then we look at treating each of those individuals uniquely based on their skillsets, based on their career desires, and really looking at how we leverage that towards helping Red Hat be our best. We’re unique in that we have an open culture that really is centered on bringing all of the different perspectives from all of the different individuals and humans within our company together, towards the collective opportunities we’re trying to solve. So that would be my definition or application and practice.
Bayan Qoul:
I would agree, and plus one that, because it’s human-centered design, it’s basically grounded in empathy and inclusion, and bringing all of these different voices and creating seamless experiences at every touchpoint. So at the end of the day, Expedia Group services customers, which are travelers. So for our product and customer-facing folks, we have this traveler-centric design approach. For internal operations it’s the HCD, for example, the people team or other audiences that we serve as learning professionals. It’s basically, yeah, I agree completely with Jen, just putting the human in the center of your approach, and making decisions based on the feedback and the data that you are receiving from those people, because you’re building solutions for them at the end of the day.
Michelle Eggleston Schwartz:
Thank you for sharing and breaking down your definitions of that concept. We touched on earlier that, in the past, it was widely accepted that people’s work and personal lives were separate, which meant that people were treated as employees first, and human second. Why do you think for the most part that this is no longer the case and we’re kind of moving away from that?
Bayan Qoul:
I really loved in your introduction where you said, babies are on Zoom. So absolutely. I mean, my kids are always on my Zoom meetings. I think they’re officially employees now of the company. But yeah, employees generally spend more time at work than in any other aspect of their life, right? I think previously it was just more structured, you go nine to five. You finish your work, you go home. With all the changes that have happened, and what COVID kind of forced us to do and adapt very quickly to this new world of work, there’s just no more lines of where work ends and your personal life starts. So you just have to make it work basically. I think any organization that really cares about retaining their top talent, is trying to appeal to the human side and their offerings and their benefits and all of that, and the flexibility that they offer. So with COVID, I think this process was expedited … we were stripped down to our basic human emotions and need for survival. There is no other way than to cater for that human in all of us. Another thing I think as well is the rise of digitization and automation of a lot of tasks. A lot of admin tasks kind of shifts the focus on the more social and emotional intelligence side of the spectrum of skills. Because that until this day cannot be automated, to my knowledge. I don’t know what will happen in the future, but we still need those very trained human and highly cognitive skills.
Jennifer Dudeck:
It’s well said, Bayan. I guess the perspective that I have as I think about our associates, yeah, the world has changed so much in the last 18 months, two plus years, I guess it’s been. And it was already changing, to Bayan’s point around digitization. Where we try to focus is one, there is, as Bayan said, this integration of our work and our life increasingly. So with so much ambiguity, with so much scatterization of everything that’s going on in our lives, where are those unifying things that can keep people grounded and centered? We talk a lot about burnout because we see that in all the statistics, that burnout is at the highest it’s probably been, because of what’s going on. So we ask ourselves, why does that happen? Some of it is because of this integration of work and life and not having those boundaries. But increasingly, into Bayan’s point, as the nature of our work is changing, how do we help associates really have that grounding in their career and a focus on their career? And understanding the value that they’re bringing, and where they can continue to grow and develop often in those social type skills. So we really are leaning more heavily into career, even beyond just talking about learning and skills. Because if I start from a place that I may be working differently, I may sometimes be working harder than I had to in the past, but there’s purpose to it. The purpose is that I know how I’m contributing to the company. I know what it means toward my own personal career growth. We’re finding that that becomes more and more of a grounding and centering factor for us, and really put that into our human-centered approach.
Sarah Gallo:
Perfect. Yeah, it’s definitely a new world of work, which I think with it brings opportunities, which can be exciting. But also it can be a little bit nerve wracking, especially for those leaders who are wading into uncharted territory, so to speak. So with that in mind, what soft skills do leaders really need to support human-centered work and how can training and development really help instill those in leaders?
Jennifer Dudeck:
I’m passionate about this one, so I’m happy to jump in. It starts with the obvious. If our leaders can start by valuing their associates as human beings; listening; caring for them as people; seeking to understand where they’re at; their perspectives; their lived experiences, it’s amazing how far that will go. Because what I’ve often found is, I don’t often have all the answers for an associate. I can’t often tell them exactly where their career is going to head, or what even tomorrow is going to look like. But if I can show up as a leader, as someone who sincerely is curious about them, and wants to understand where they’re at and comes with an attitude of, I’m here to help as best I can … and that doesn’t necessarily mean having all the answers, that’s a place to start. Having spent a lot of time with engineers, it’s interesting because we say, you need to have empathy and that can be relatively abstract. We know what it means to have empathy, but when we can break that down to say, well, what does empathy mean? Empathy means seeking to be curious and understand the point that an individual is at. Seeking to try and connect and bring yourself into that situation that individual is going through. So we do try to with our leaders, especially those that may be more of the analytical brain, give some very specific things that they can do that end up resulting in a feeling of care, a feeling of empathy. Because I would say, 99% of my managers at Red Hat do care. Sometimes, they just don’t know what that looks like at a human level, so that’s where we try to focus.
Sarah Gallo:
Perfect, and to piggyback on that really quick, Jen, can you talk about what those practices look like?
Jennifer Dudeck:
Yeah, if I break it down into … I’m almost like, what are the tasks? Sometimes that’s useful to say, what are the things I tactically do? I would say, one, we expect that our managers are having frequent regular discussions with every individual on their team. I would like that to be at least weekly. Perhaps it’s much more than that on any given day. I know with my team, there are some days I’m talking to someone every day. So that’s step one. Step two is, when we have those regular conversations, you start with asking, “How are you? How are you, Associate?” And then you pause to let them respond and listen. And then the action is, you share back what you heard. Sometimes, as I think we probably all being practitioners know, that being heard means … sometimes the way you show people you’re being heard is, you play back, what did you hear from that person? So it can be as simple as, am I meeting with my team regularly as individual? Am I starting the conversation with asking how they are and then am I pausing to listen? Not just jumping into, “Oh, that’s great. Now, let’s go to the next thing.” And then playing back, I heard you say that you feel like you’ve got a lot right now. And then, what can I do to help? It’s as simple as asking those questions, but you have to do it with sincerity and in willingness to lean in and do the things that that associate may need you to do to help them.
Sarah Gallo:
Perfect. Bayan, did you have anything to add on those soft skills that leaders really need today?
Bayan Qoul:
I think [that] was beautifully said and described by Jen. The first answer that came to mind is active listening, [which] is exactly what you just described, right? Because at the end of the day, that is what human centered is. You need to stop yourself from jumping into conclusions and challenging your biases that you have relied on previously, and that may have served you well in the past. And really just read beyond the even verbal cues and words, into the body language. Sometimes it’s challenging over Zoom but you can still feel that energy. It’s like you said, when you have that empathy skill, you can really from a tone of voice of someone … even if they have their camera off, you can tell, maybe they’re not having the best day. So yeah, I absolutely agree. Active listening, I would say, and maybe the intersection of data and communication. So when we talk about maybe data visualization, that requires a lot of soft skills to be able to present your findings to that human and your stakeholders that you’re presenting to.
Michelle Eggleston Schwartz:
Definitely, those skills like empathy and reading those non-verbal cues to pick up on how somebody is feeling, is so important. Another point I wanted to bring up here is that human-centered work supports the idea that employees can and should bring their whole selves to work. But it’s more difficult for employees from underrepresented groups to feel comfortable doing so. How can leaders create a culture of psychological safety so that employees feel comfortable bringing their whole selves to work?
Bayan Qoul:
I mean, psychological safety in its core definition, is allowing people to explore and take risks without being judged, without being bullied or punished. This is ultimately an organization-wide effort. It doesn’t happen just from leaders or just from managers or colleagues. It’s a comprehensive understanding of a culture. Some efforts I would say, for underrepresented groups specifically, is creating these communities where they can feel the sense of belonging. At EG [Expedia Group], for example, we call them inclusive business groups, IBGs, and they have the full support and buy-in of leaders. So that in itself, the fact that they have resources and they have access to anything they need to set them up for success, is an indicator that we hear you and we value your voices and your input and your feedback. We want to utilize you as business partners. So a lot of times we actually go to these groups and ask them, what issues are you seeing specifically? Even if we do select a random, let’s say, population or sample to do a focus group, we then also make sure to make room for IBGs. Because they also represent another layer of maybe complexities sometimes, but also human needs that are not always obvious to everyone. We all have different experiences but at the end of the day, we all experience the same human emotions.
Bayan Qoul:
So yeah. I would say, some behaviors that leaders can exhibit and lead by example and model, is taking the time to get to know people beyond the business scope and beyond the conversation. I really love what Jen said, you start your meeting, “How are you?” Really, “How are you?” Not just, “Hey, how are you?” And then get to the point. Honestly, to me personally, what I really find to be empowering from managers, is when they push back on certain requests. Because they truly understand the bandwidth of their teammates, and they know that they cannot add anything to it because that will lead to burnout. So when a manager or leader takes that decision on behalf of the team, that is an extremely safe environment for people to bring their best selves to work.
Jennifer Dudeck:
That’s so well said, I agree. Yes, it starts with when we think about our diverse communities, our underrepresented communities and creating that psychological safety. As Bayan said, it starts with one, again, do I understand the team’s lived experiences and how that influences how they come to work? Maybe they had slightly different dynamic. Again, because I work with a lot of engineers to get to the almost tactical, there are things we can do to create that safe environment that Bayan mentioned, where everyone can give their fullest and feel free to contribute without a risk of what it means. So one thing that we believe really strongly at Red Hat is, we believe in transparency as part of our open culture. So being really transparent with the team around the expectations in terms of how we will interact together. Because sometimes what I find at Red Hat is, we also need to put parameters around what psychological safety means. It doesn’t mean we’re always going to all agree, and that if I disagree with you that somehow that’s contributing to not a psychologically safe environment. But you have to lay the table ahead of time to say, here’s how we will interact with each other. We will treat people with kindness. We will respect. We will seek to understand where perspectives come from and be curious about it. So setting those ground rules almost in front with a team, puts everyone on the same playing field. And now I feel safe to contribute because I know what’s going to be expected of myself, but also my peers. And then that transparency sometimes of … Bayan mentioned pushing back when there’s things coming in, that we can’t take on more so pushing with my leaders, but then also pushing each other. I always say, when I really respect someone, is when I’m going to have the debate. If I just am like, yeah whatever, and move along, that’s not showing always a respect. So if I can do it in a way that is being respectable of the human, but if I can push and challenge and bring out the best in a way that’s conscious of the different lived experiences and different perspectives, that’s when we really are creating a psychologically safe environment. Right?
Sarah Gallo:
Yeah. I love that. I definitely agree that understanding really is so important. I also think that sometimes when it comes to being an inclusive leader, it really starts with doing some unlearning. By that I really mean, unlearning some of those unconscious biases that we know we all have, like you mentioned earlier, Bayan. So with that in mind, how can unconscious bias training and really DEI training more generally help build and sustain that human-centered workplace where everyone feels supported?
Bayan Qoul:
I feel like in general, any DEI initiatives or efforts is really very complementary to HCD, very natural. It’s a very natural relationship. Because it’s like you said, unconscious bias, it challenges you to not make judgments based on your stereotypical profiling and your existing backgrounds and experiences. It’s like you said, it’s a lot of unlearning and learning with more of an open mind and curiosity to other people’s experiences. HCD is kind of on the same way, but on more of the operational side of things. It does challenge you to not jump into solutioning mode. When you’re faced with an issue or you’re taking on a project for the first time, the first thing that you need to do is go through the process of really digging into the root causes of this, and that includes human and non-human factors and experiences. Both practices on both ends, I would say, complement each other. They ensure that the integrity and objectivity of the information that is driving decisions, at the end of the day affects everyone in the company. So yeah, it’s like a natural and complementary relationship, if I were to basically summarize.
Jennifer Dudeck:
I agree. And maybe one thing to add that we’ve tried to think about … and where I’ve seen what we do around unconscious bias and some of our DEI efforts where they have their fullest potential, is when we also are able to get them at the application layer. So we really think about when we talk about sometimes these things in the abstract, as sometimes a company will do is, we’ll put everyone through unconscious bias training. But again, in the human-centered approach we’re saying, let’s look at the situation people are in, at any given time and now apply it. A big focus for us, for example, is in our hiring processes. If we can bring a better understanding of bias and unconscious bias and what we do about it, into say our hiring processes with those managers that are in that moment, the human part of it, but what would they get from it? One, they’re better. We’re better, but also it helps them fulfill their objective even more because they’re going to get better talent. So it makes it resonate for them to say, this is what this will bring you, if we could just do these things perhaps a little differently, to as best we can mitigate that bias that we know exists in many different forms. So that’s maybe one other thing I’d add is, we’ve learned that we try and bring these into the application layer because then it makes it real. It brings it right to where people are experiencing where they could maybe do things differently.
Bayan Qoul:
Absolutely, I agree. I really just want to plus one that, because it gives them real-life examples of what to do, not just theories of like, oh, you need to unlearn this and then challenge yourself. What does that mean in reality?
Michelle Eggleston Schwartz:
Definitely, completely agree. We have to keep challenging ourselves to do better and unlearn maybe much of what we’ve known and the processes that we’ve adopted. So definitely agree with that. Another thing I would like to touch on is executive buy-in for change initiatives. It’s so important and often extremely challenging to get buy-in for changing initiatives. I’m curious, what advice do you have for our listeners who are struggling to get executives on board with the idea of human-centered work? Why should this be a business priority?
Jennifer Dudeck:
It’s funny, I sit on our Red Hat’s executive team. It sounds obvious, it might even sound a little cliché, but it is also true; the more an individual or team is able to come to myself or my peers with recommendations on what we could do differently … including taking a different approach to how we think about something in a more human-centric way and show again, not the abstract. It goes back to the last question. But the more specific data and outcome this will drive, the more the leaders I work with can connect to it. I always say for all of us, again, this is human centered, “If we can put ourselves in the situation that the people that we are either speaking to or trying to work with, are in, we will be better. It’ll be more inclusive and it’ll be just more effective.” So where I’m going with this is to say, if we just all remember that if you’re coming to an executive team, let’s say, at any given time that executive team is thinking across 10 different, probably more [initiatives]. If I think about my morning this morning, there’s already been five different things I’m having to respond to, of completely different nature. So at any given time, you realize you’re coming to these executives, their brain is consumed with five, six, seven, eight, nine, 10 different things that they’re trying to balance, and figure out how do they manage and navigate into that? We all are. I mean, it’s not just our executives. So the more we’re able to come in and have precision around, this is the outcome that taking this approach can give us and use the data to back that up, it makes it easier to support. Because you have to go into it from a place … I always from a place, assume good intention of everyone. If we assume that the executive team you’re going to present to, they want to do the right thing, the question becomes, how do you help them make the right decisions? How do you help them do the right thing? Sometimes it’s that precision, it’s that data around the outcome that can yield, that gets to that quicker. I am the first to say, the most painful is when you have to go back and forth on these decisions like 18 times, and slow roll or drag people across to the decision. When you can come in with a really compelling case with data and the clear outcome, it saves a whole lot of heartache of the back and forth, and back and forth. That would be my perspective.
Bayan Qoul:
Yeah, I completely agree. I really love, by the way, the pairing of us being in different levels of the organization, because we have very different perspectives. But I would say, if I were to go to my executive team and tried to pitch that idea of adopting [a training initiative] even though it was actually adopted wildly by them and a top-down decision, which I’m very thankful for, but if I was in that situation, that’s how I tried to approach this question. I think it’s speaking their language. It’s like you said, what do leaders at the end of the day want? They want return on investment. They want the best way to do things in terms of using the resources and the technology, and not spending too much money on things that we’re not exactly sure will benefit us on the long term or not. So HCD kind of covers all these bases. I mean, I can go on, on the benefits of applying HCD. There’s so much research on major companies like Google and even Nike, and all their campaigns and the work they do. But basically, yes, I mean, you get customer satisfaction because you’re building your entire solution set based on the customer experience and the journey, and all of that. When I say customer, it can range from your employees to your end consumers, to everyone in the chain basically. It also reduces really the number of integrations that you have to do because everyone, it’s an all hands-on-deck effort. So everyone is involved at every stage of the process; when you’re doing the research; when you’re framing before you get to the decision. So it forces people to come together and create that inclusive culture basically. It’s innovation. It really leads and promotes innovation because like I said, the best ideas from the HCD perspective are the ones that overlap between viability from a business standpoint, feasibility of resources and the desirability of the end user, so it covers all bases. It’s the solution you need. I think sometimes there’s definitely some challenges with applying HCD in reality, because sometimes you get stuck in certain phases and you don’t really know when to pull the plug. I don’t know, Jen, you probably have seen this multiple times, how much research is enough research? Should we do more? Should we talk to other people? That’s I think where the challenges come in and really the guidance of leaders come at play to support and make sure that this process is successful, just giving the guidelines and then just allowing people to go through the process.
Jennifer Dudeck:
I have to quick jump in because it’s such a good point. I think human-centered design, to Bayan’s great point, in my view absolutely is coupled with agile design. Because to the point, how far do you go in the research and how deep do you go? If you pair it with agile design, which is fluid and iterative, it gives that balance to say this sprint, we’re going to get this far and we won’t know everything. Because the other thing I say to my team is … I find that sometimes we create something and even when we do it in a human-centric way and because we’re humans, I like to say, “It becomes our baby.” It becomes our wonderful creation. And to the point of, how far do we go? If we go too far or if we take too long and we get it so close to what we think is perfect, well, guess what? Now, when you come to whoever you’re trying to get adoption with, you’re essentially saying you don’t want input. Because you’ve taken so long to try and get to a level of perfection, what’s the message that that sends, again in terms of being human-centric? What it says to me, when you say, well, we’ve spent the last year building this out and we’ve looked at every different angle, you’re essentially saying, and it is perfect. So now Jen, I want you to give me that little sliver of input that I think I want to receive. Versus if we create … again, this goes back to psychological safety. If we create an environment where we can say, you know what? I want you to come to the executive team when you have the first pass … again, still with data, just of what do you think the outcome should be? And then to Bayan’s point, there’s this iteration of, I’m going to test. I’m going to test. You’re actually being more inclusive and more human-centric because you’re able to keep taking it in, without it feeling like you’ve tried to develop perfection, the Mona Lisa, before you’re coming in and asking me for the input. So I do think that agility piece, using agile practices, is nicely complementary to really taking that human-centered approach.
Sarah Gallo:
Perfect. Great. Well, before we wrap up today, I want to take a moment to recognize that really creating this human-centered workplace isn’t a one-and-done process. Actually, usually it’s quite the opposite. So what tips do you have for our listeners who may be left wondering just where to get started? What’s one step they can take to get started building this human-centered workplace?
Bayan Qoul:
It’s really as simple as “pause” and observe. I said this before, challenge yourself to not jump into solutions. I think it’s so funny how hardwired solutioning is into our human brain, which I think, I mean, it must have been a very important skill for us to survive previously, but now we really don’t need a quick fix for things. Sometimes you might need that, but do you want a quick fix versus a long-term sustainable solution that will benefit everyone involved? So it’s just that. It’s just pause and let the data basically guide your decisions.
Jennifer Dudeck:
That’s so well said. Yeah, I agree. Plus one, pausing and being curious to say where things are at. And maybe to add to the wonderful answer, that does though require … we have to be confident enough in ourselves and our companies and willing to say, we’re not perfect. You have to start from a place of, we know we could be better. That will open the door to pause and be curious and seek those opportunities where we could be better. It’s really allowing ourselves as leaders, as practitioners, as companies, to be slightly vulnerable that you know what? We’re not perfect on everything. So we’re going to be curious and pause and listen, as Bayan said, to understand where those opportunities that we could be more human-centric in what we’re doing and how we’re doing it.
Michelle Eggleston Schwartz:
I love that, just pause and listen. Such great advice. So on that note, Jen, Bayan, thank you both for speaking with us today. This was a great conversation. How can our listeners get in touch with you after today’s episode, if they’d like to reach out?
Jennifer Dudeck:
They can find me on LinkedIn, Jennifer Dudeck.
Bayan Qoul:
Yes, I would say the same. It’s Bayan Qoul.
Sarah Gallo:
For more insights on training’s role in building and sustaining a human-centered workplace, check out the show notes for this episode at trainingindustry.com/trainingindustrypodcast.
Michelle Eggleston Schwartz:
And if you enjoyed this episode, let us know. Leave a review wherever you listen to your podcasts, until next time.
Sarah Gallo:
If you have feedback about this episode or would like to suggest a topic for a future program, email us at info@trainingindustry.com, or use the Contact Us page attrainingindustry.com. Thanks for listening to the Training Industry Podcast.
