Today’s employees want to learn and grow, and they expect their organization to help them do it. In fact, LinkedIn Learning’s 2023 Workplace Learning Report found that the No. 1 way organizations are working to improve retention is by providing learning opportunities.
However, integrating learning into the employee experience is easier said than done. For many training professionals, who are busy rolling out mandatory compliance programs or initiatives requested by business leaders, it sits on the (seemingly never-ending) list of “nice-to-haves.”
In this just-released episode of The Business of Learning, we spoke with Sydney Savion, senior director of learning services at Google and member of Training Industry Magazine’s editorial board, Thomas Fenstermacher, CPTM, learning specialist at TrellisRX, and Eric McArdle, CPTM, manager of training and knowledge management at Cisco, for tips that can help.
Listen now for insights on:
• The business benefits of creating a culture of learning.
• How to make time and space for employees to learn.
• The importance of leadership training in creating a positive employee experience.
Listen now:
Additional Resources:
- Enhance the Employee Experience and Drive Continuous Learning With an LMS
- Shaping the Onboarding Experience
- Elevating Engagement — How L&D Leaders Can Drive Growth
Download the complimentary job aid below, courtesy of Training Industry’s Agile for HR and L&D Certificate program, for more tips on delivering learning across the employee lifecycle.
The transcript for this episode follows:
Speaker 1:
Welcome to The Business of Learning, the learning leader’s podcast from Training Industry.
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Michelle Eggleston Schwartz:
Hi, welcome back to The Business of Learning. I’m Michelle Eggleston Schwartz, editor-in-chief at Training Industry.
Sarah Gallo:
And I’m Sarah Gallo, a senior editor.
Michelle Eggleston Schwartz:
As a training professional, you know that learning and development is integral to the employee experience. Today’s employees want to learn and grow, and they expect their organization to help them do it. In fact, LinkedIn Learning’s 2023 Workplace Learning Report found that the number one way organizations are working to improve retention is by providing learning opportunities. So today we’re excited to learn more about how L&D can improve the employee experience and deliver the professional development that today’s employees not only want, but expect. With us, we have Sydney Savion, senior director of learning services at Google, and member of Training Industry Magazine’s editorial board, Thomas Fenstermacher, a Certified Professional in Training Management and L&D specialist at Trellis Rx, and Eric McArdle, Certified Professional in Training Management and manager of training and knowledge management at Cisco. Sydney, Thomas and Eric, welcome to the podcast.
Sydney Savion:
Thank you.
Thomas Fenstermacher:
Thanks for having us.
Sarah Gallo:
Perfect. We’re excited for the conversation and I think to get things started, it will be great if you could each share your own definitions for the employee experience.
Sydney Savion:
Sure. Why don’t I get started? It’s Sydney here, and I think real simple for me, the employee experience is the total of all interactions and experience in the employee’s lifecycle, from the time they onboard to the time they exit the company.
Thomas Fenstermacher:
Yeah, I would certainly second that. A lot of folks think that the employee experience is what they experience during onboarding and the training that they go through and the people that they meet and all that stuff. That leads up to them becoming a productive member of the team, but often do overlook the interactions they have with other members of the team and how widely resources are used by the teams they encounter, and just generally that culture and candor that they have once they’re released to their respective site or job and expect it to operate independently.
Eric McArdle:
An employee experience. It’s the perspective of that employee from end to end, almost to the point of where you apply for the job and how they handle even recruiting you in, getting through your onboarding and how do they allow you to grow and challenge you, and then of course all the way to the exit portion. So yeah, definitely there’s multiple life cycles of the employee and just a good positive employee experience has to hit all the marks in each of those parts of the lifecycle.
Sarah Gallo:
Great. Yeah. It’s definitely not one thing, right? There’s so many factors at play here, so I’m interested to hear what are some of the specific factors that can make or break the employee experience?
Eric McArdle:
Oh, I’ll go here. I have two. There’s a lot, right? I’m sure there’s a lot. Everybody was ready to go. The two I would think just right now is onboarding and leadership. I think we’ve all maybe experienced this early in our careers or maybe obviously seen it in a movie. The onboard experiences getting put into a room on a plastic chair that’s not comfortable and watching a video for eight hours and then jumping into your work, right? Now on the whole other spectrum, it’s an onboarding program that’s tricked out. I’m meeting people, leaders from all over the company. I’m learning what the company does, the visions, values and goals. And then leadership, I think that’s the number one make or break because you could love your job, you could love your team. If leadership’s not doing it for you, you may not stay there. I think a leadership and developing our leaders to provide a great employee experience, I mean, there’s a direct correlation of having a great time at your job, loving coming in and how your leader leads you.
Sydney Savion:
I’m going to jump in and add to what Eric was saying, and I agree to everything he just said, and I’ll add the learning and development component is going to be crucial in terms of what people are learning, the trajectory of their growth and opportunities and also work-life balance. I think nowadays, especially as we are making our foray out of COVID, people still are expecting a high-level degree of work-life balance and being able to manage that effectively. And then the last thing for me is going to be about bolstering and boosting dopamine levels. I think if people aren’t happy, they’re not going to be productive and I think all of the things that Eric and myself just mentioned will contribute to the happiness and productivity of people. And what will be continuous factors in terms of make or break in the employee experience.
Thomas Fenstermacher:
For sure. It’s a classic trope. People don’t leave organizations, they leave managers. So your leadership, their skills, their abilities to navigate those tricky situations that come up and instill some level of comfort and expertise in the folks they’re working with is super important. And you should also not underestimate the value of a smiling face. One of my leaders, one of my mentors used to talk about, you don’t want people to think that you’re running this business out of your basement. It has to be professional from the start. Your messaging, your cadence, your follow through and follow up needs to be appropriate to get that person hooked and to want them to be part of whatever it is you’re trying to accomplish as an organization.
Michelle Eggleston Schwartz:
Definitely. I like that point there that you all made about the happiness factor and the engagement of employees and how crucial that is. And I think we’re all in agreement here that leadership training is extremely important and it can really make or break that employee experience. So I’d hope to dive in and dig a little deeper into that and hear your thoughts around what skills do leaders need to support a positive employee experience.
Sydney Savion:
I’ll jump in and start us off. I think there’s like five things, let’s say, there’s emotional intelligence, your ability to be introspective, your ability to put yourself in the individual’s shoes and understand, there’s communication. I think that a leader needs to be, have effective communication. Also transparency. It’s not enough just to communicate well, what are you communicating? So being transparent, empathy to me falls in alignment with emotional intelligence. Motivation, we talked a little bit about that. How are we motivating our people? How are we keep keeping those dopamine levels high? So people want to and inspired to do what you’re asking them to do in terms of creating a high performing team. And then feedback, going back to my point about transparency. How are you giving and providing constructive and transparent feedback to your employees so that they can be more reflective, ask the question behind the question and continue to grow. So those are the things I think are important skills that leaders need to support a positive employee experience.
Eric McArdle:
So I’ll jump on that a bit, especially the transparency part. Being willing as a leader to have those courageous conversations to level set with your employees. As employees, we want to know where we stand. And so having empathy, I love to say just be human, it’s a human connection right there. And all the other skills that Sydney talked about as well, that the communication skills and being able to communicate in a way that you are influencing that employee for whatever it may be.
Thomas Fenstermacher:
I have nothing that could sum it up more eloquently than those five points. So I want to focus on something that I hear as a common point of feedback or common pain point that folks have, especially in industries where they’re highly regulated and there’s a lot of other things that need to be considered by the leaders more so than just what the requirements are of their team’s jobs. And that’s leaders need to be aware of and make a conscious effort to be responsible for more getting done, but not being personally responsible for getting it done. Because that inability to shift out of that employee mindset into a manager mindset leads a lot to that micromanagement and that over assertion of themselves and the things that quite honestly don’t need their time, their energy or their expertise. So making sure that leaders are fully prepared to transition from their individual output and productivity being the measure of their success to that of their team’s output and productivity and accomplishments as a whole, I think is incredibly vital for a leader to be successful in any industry.
Eric McArdle:
And I think to jump on the micromanaging too, I like to say be a multiplier leader. Don’t be a diminisher, right? Multiply the productivity, the potential, the engagement of your employee. Micromanaging is old, that’s back in the day, it doesn’t work anymore. So just wanted to add that there.
Sarah Gallo:
Yeah, I love that. Micromanaging is out, multiplying is in. I guess kind of jumping off of what something Michelle mentioned earlier, which is that today’s employees really do, they expect companies to help them learn and grow. It’s no longer an option. So I’m interested to hear how can L&D help support an employee experience that does encourage lifelong learning? And definitely feel free to touch on how your own organizations are doing this work.
Sydney Savion:
Well, I’ll start again. Access to me is a big deal in this space in terms of being able to encourage lifelong learning. And to me that equals democratization of learning, as well as learning resources, as well as access of course to the technology and other resources associated with that. Also creating a culture of continuous learning. I think we can talk about lifelong learning, but in order to arrive there or cultivate that, we have to be cultivating and creating a culture of continuous learning and encouraging employees to take calculated risk and learning from those risks to continuously learn and move forward. And then the third thing for me is recognizing and rewarding learning. So oftentimes when people have to take learning or training, you know what, is dreadful, instead of walking on the red carpet to the Oscars, they think they’re going into purgatory. And so how do we create an atmosphere and environment where people are recognized and rewarded and they’re fired up to go learn something new?
Eric McArdle:
So I would say for learning and development with a positive employee experience, the learning has to be good. We got to be willing to want to go take it, which we’re adults here, so lecturing us with a PowerPoint is not how you do it. So there has to be different, that modalities has to be inclusive of all types of learners and it has to be accessible, readily available. It shouldn’t be hard to get, and it should be a mixture of there’s learning a skill that’s required at the job. But what about my career growth and my personal growth, weaving in opportunities for developmental relationships. So a lot of people don’t think that like, “Oh, getting coaching and mentoring, that’s a great part of L&D.” Getting those stretch assignments to be able to grow. So L&D plays a huge experience, at least for me, the employee experience… I love where I work because I have the opportunity to grow. I’m constantly challenged and there’s more learning than I can ever take in a lifetime.
Thomas Fenstermacher:
Maybe this is a bit of my previous experience outside of industry and corporate learning, I think it’s really important for us to isolate L&D and the development from the kind of HR side and compliance education side. We need to treat it as something that’s a little bit different and unique, because ultimately you want people to trust that what you’re doing with them isn’t punitive, that there’s a purpose behind it. That’s more so than checking a box or making sure that they are where you need them to be, to accomplish your goals and meet your KPIs. It has to be something that they’re seeking out, that they place value in, and ultimately, that they enjoy. And I think that the kind of magic school bus mentality, the get messy, make mistakes. I think that kind of learning where they’re allowed to try things, where they’re allowed to experience it for themselves and fail and recover in a way that’s measurable, safe, and ultimately doesn’t impact the real customers they’re going to be serving, the real patients they’re going to be working with or the real clients they’re going be serving, is one of those things you can do to get that kind of culture of learning there where, “Hey, we’ll ask you questions about this.”
And I don’t feel dumb asking it. I don’t feel like I’m going to be penalized. I don’t feel like this is going to get out of my control if I’m struggling. So making sure that separation there is there and that clarity surrounds what you’re trying to do. Super important for us, not just our leaders, to be transparent.
Michelle Eggleston Schwartz:
Definitely. That’s such a good point that learning really provides that opportunity to fail, and which in turn provides that growth that employees really need and are looking for. So shifting gears a little bit, and looking at this from the business perspective and the business benefits that learning provides companies, can you all talk about why it’s important that organizations invest in creating a culture of learning?
Thomas Fenstermacher:
Having a culture of learning means that your folks want to develop, they want to grow, they want to be better, they want to seek out opportunities, and ultimately they want to be a better or improved version of where they started. And for a company, if you have a bunch of people that are learning skills for succession planning, if you have a bunch of people that are expanding their scope and are ready to take on leadership roles, if you have a bunch of people that are truly invested in your mission, in your purpose, because they know that you’re invested in them, their growth and their purpose, it makes every secondary function of needing to move folks around, replace folks when they retire, when they move up, so much easier, because folks know that that support won’t stop if they’re in a situation where they’re uncomfortable, where things are new, where they have the potential to be confused, lost, or behind the eight-ball. So that culture does support not just that individual, but that entire business function, that entire service line, if everyone is invested in learning more, growing and reaching out.
Eric McArdle:
Learning is as a core of a good culture, I feel like. Right? And let’s go back to when we have happy employees, what are their traits? They’re productive, right? They become innovative and they let their creativity out because that guard comes down because they feel safe to be able to fail and be able to grow. And then when we have them innovating, what are we doing? We’re creating better products, we are providing a better customer experience, a direct correlation of a great employee experience, well, you’re happy then to go support your customers. You’re happy to build new things, you’re happy to innovate and move the company and the organization forward. So I feel it all falls on a good culture, especially with learning inside of that.
Sydney Savion:
And I’ll just add to everything that was already said. I think increased employee engagement is key in terms of why the business should be invested in this, improved employee skills and knowledge. All of these things really feed into this notion around productivity and in a time, in an era right now where operational expenses, OpEx, is the focus in terms of reducing OpEx, all these things matter, because a big part of being able to reduce your operational cost would be to ensure that your people are productive, to ensure that people are happy so that you’re not spending money because of high flight risks to replace top talent. So I think it all comes full circle in terms of being able to keep the employee at the center of your business decisions, your why for existing and ensuring that people feel your employees feel like, and also know, not just feel what they know and see the reasons why you’re investing in them.
Eric McArdle:
And to add on that too, another thing is that culture of learning, it turns into an organic talent acceleration. And also one of the things is you have senior members, and again, if you have a culture of learning, senior members will pass on that tribal knowledge down to newer members and it just continue to everybody to grow their skillset. So I think that if you have the culture of learning, then learning’s just going to happen. You don’t really have to push it too hard and just let it grow organically.
Sarah Gallo:
Love that. It’s a cool domino effect almost, for sure. We’ll be right back after a brief message from our sponsor.
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Sarah Gallo:
So we’ve established that it’s important to create a learning culture for both employees and the bottom line, but I think it’s important to remember that creating this culture of learning is easier said than done, especially in a digital business environment. So what tips do you have for our listeners who are interested in getting started and want to begin creating a culture of learning?
Sydney Savion:
Well, I would go with four things, and that is making learning accessible. I think the more you can make sure things are accessible regardless of your location, I think that’s key. Encouraging collaboration, so ensuring that people have access to tools where they can collaborate, and then encouraging that collaboration, providing opportunities for feedback, making sure that people aren’t feeling like isolated, they’re out, there’re not given any feedback or opportunities to even provide feedback unless we recognizing and rewarding learning. I feel like that’s still key for me, so you can encourage and inspire people to continuously learn and you’re rewarding their learning accomplishments. So those are the things that I think would help create a culture of learning even in a virtual hybrid environment.
Thomas Fenstermacher:
My two high points for making sure that folks are engaged and supported in this hybrid or digital platform are going to be making sure that you choose a tool that is appropriate for what you’re trying to accomplish. If you’re wanting to have a town hall or a forum where folks are encouraged to speak back and contribute to it, maybe a platform that people to speak or send messages to you isn’t the forum you want to go with, right? You might want to select a tool that’s more open, more accessible and provides you as the L&D leader with a little bit more control over who, when and how they can chime in, and allows you to still control and guide a conversation without shutting people out. The other big thing that I want to remind folks of when you’re working in this environment is just because it’s digital or hybrid doesn’t mean that it’s an excuse to not put your best foot forward and not to present something that is complete, that is finished, that is polished, and it shows the people that you’re trying to engage or instruct that you’re willing to invest the time in these things.
Because one of the quickest ways to get people to check out during a virtual or hybrid session is to show that, well, you don’t care either. It’s just something you have to do. It doesn’t really matter. So making sure that it’s polished, the spelling errors are corrected, and everything that you’re presenting, using or interacting with has that high level of polish that you expect from a classroom situation.
Eric McArdle:
And jump right into that. That’s what you want to aim for with your technology is. How can you mimic the traditional classroom, right? So I like to say, “My training’s video on, let’s see each other, let’s talk.” I want that connection to happen. So I would say that what Sydney said, making it accessible, and then also understanding that learning doesn’t just have to be done by the L&D team, get other people involved, get other people involved to deliver. And what happens when your coworkers delivering, well, you get kind of hyped up, you’re like, “Hey, I feel like I’m getting empowered to go and deliver the next one.” So I think just including everybody, and it’s stuff that I’ve done in my company with initiatives where it’s, “Yeah, let’s get the people who talk to the customers.” Delivering also the training. So just trying to get everybody together. But I would say the most is try to get as close as you can to that traditional classroom to build that human connection.
Thomas Fenstermacher:
I’m going to pierce the veil a little bit here, since everybody’s hearing this. Just voices hearing things going on here. We’re all on camera, we’re all talking to each other. We are all connecting on a more human level, even if you can’t see it, because those practices as an L&D leader, they don’t just end because our classroom session ends, they don’t just end because we don’t have our own personal group that we’re presenting to. These are things that you can [do] that increase your presence, your professionalism, and your general presentation style.
Michelle Eggleston Schwartz:
Definitely. Thank you all for sharing you. You definitely touched on the important role that technology plays in delivering training today, and I’d just love to hear more about how organizations can leverage technology to create a culture of learning and growth. Because as we all know, technology is really accelerating today at such a rapid pace and changing how people work and perform their jobs. And this is really having an impact on L&D. I think it’s all over kind of the news and everything with artificial intelligence and really how this is transforming everything. And I’m just interested to hear your thoughts on the role that technology can play in creating that culture of learning.
Sydney Savion:
Michelle, you hit the button there with the AI, we’re in an AI driven marketplace and I really do feel like we need to, and what we’re trying to do is reimagine the role of artificial intelligence. And in doing that, we have to also reimagine the roles, the human roles in terms of how we will collaborate or partner, if you will, with artificial intelligence going forward to maintain or even bolster an employee experience and culture across the company. So that’s one thing underway it’s ever evolving right now. The other couple things for me is making learning more engaging. As Eric said before, I mean as adult learners, PowerPoint slides just don’t work, but yet, they are still used pervasively across pretty much all industries. So how do we continue to make learning engaging? Sometimes does it even require a slide or words on paper, so to speak, to get the learning that people need or to make it engaging? So there’s other opportunities I think that we need to exploit to make learning more engaging. And the other thing for me is tracking learning progress. I think this is where technology comes in to see who’s consuming what? Why are they consuming this? Do they get satisfaction in consuming the learning?
I think one of the things I’ve found in every company I’ve worked for is we produce a lot of stuff, but there’s not a lot of consumption and there’s very little impact. And so I’d say tracking the progress of learning and the impact of learning. So those are the things that I would say is the role of technology as it continues to evolve and support a culture of learning across the organization.
Eric McArdle:
I definitely hope as content creators, we’re not just going over ChatGPT and say, “Hey, build me this course real quick.” Popping it in something and just calling it a day. A lot of things were covered right by Sydney, I would say, I think about learning experience platforms and ways that we can proactively and dynamically present training to people and think about people in support, as you’re taking a case, imagine if training just got dynamically proposed to you, “Hey, you need to take this to be able to solve that.” I think technology plays a huge role, even in the platforms you go to create content, right? We’ve all been through multiple platforms of training. Some just aren’t that good, a little confusing and some are just wow, smooth, enjoyable.
I’d also say just technology in general, the employee experience. What happens if you get here, you just started a new company, they send you a really old laptop that doesn’t work and maybe you’re a video designer and it’s freezing [up] at that level. So I think it plays a huge role all the way across. But I would say one of the things I’m very excited about is the idea of just, again, proactively presenting, right? It’s always reactive. I don’t know this, let’s go find the training, but what about right when you’re figuring out you don’t know what the training’s sitting right there in the same spot for you. Tons of stuff we can do in terms of technology.
Sydney Savion:
May I add one other thing? Is learning in the flow, Eric, that made me think about that. How can we provide learning at the point of need where people need it? I think that’s been a continuous struggle in our industry to try to figure out how to do that. But I echo what you’re saying in that regard.
Eric McArdle:
We’ll get there, we’ll get there.
Thomas Fenstermacher:
There’s a ton of fear that AI and all these tools and stuff will replace the need for individual contributors and things like that. But arguably where AI stands now, it’s best used as a force multiplier. Coming back to that original conversation there, to extend our capabilities. Hey, you got a bunch of written feedback, you can’t figure out what to do with it, run some sentiment analysis on it and figure out where people stand, what they’re feeling, what they’re after, what they want to get out of the next session. Say you have one of those situations where you’re asked to create documents or something to walk folks through a process that you know is going to change in the next three weeks here, and you don’t want to add your time, add your resources to getting that done.
Well build out your skeleton, use those tools to bulk it out and have that available so you can deploy it proactively without feeling bad when you need to restructure it in a couple of weeks, a couple of months, whatever that is. These tools, when used properly, are an amazing way to supplement the talents of your facilitators, of your subject matter experts and of the people whose time is far more valuable when being spent on those long-term projects and identifying those core needs and wants of your learners so they can maximize on that learner experience platform to make sure, to Eric’s point, that those trainings exist when folks need them, not after you figure out they need them.
Michelle Eggleston Schwartz:
Definitely. Those are all excellent points. Before we wrap up here today, what’s one step our listeners can take to begin incorporating learning into the employee experience?
Sydney Savion:
I think a big part that we haven’t covered or is around diversity, equity, inclusion, and I would add another piece to that, belonging. And how people feel is really an important part of learning. It’s really important part of connecting. It’s an important part of that employee experience. Regardless of who you are, when you start somewhere, you want to feel like you belong, you feel like you’re being included, you’re connected. And I do feel like I think the beginning so that the tip is looking through the lens of DEI, B and C connecting, to make sure that you’re introducing or reintroducing those learnings to ensure you continue to improve your learning, and also the employee experience.
Eric McArdle:
I think to be successful in incorporating the learning culture and the employee experiences, fostering an environment that it’s safe to fail. And I always like to say fail fast, fail often, learn from it. It’s hard to learn. It’s hard to learn if you don’t have the ability to fail. I would also say if you’re struggling with setting up a culture, do an audit of what you have right now and start talking to your audience. Figure out what makes them tick, find their personas, find what they like, and don’t just start building stuff to build it, because that’s what happens. We have 100 courses, it’s like 20 enrollments or something.
So asking, and then when you’re doing that and asking that, that’s already giving a feeling to that employee of, “Okay, my voice matters.” And then when you execute against that, well, they can’t help but go take that training, right? They’re the ones who mentioned it. So I would think that, and then lastly, I would say it starts with the leader. One ritual I have my team is we take 15 minutes every team meeting and we either review a training industry article, review something in the training industry, and we talk about it. And that right there just builds a culture of learning in a small team. If we can do that in multiple small teams, then it’s an org, right?
Thomas Fenstermacher:
Yeah, a great first step, but a great place to start is just follow up with folks that go through the onboarding process without it and see what they’re hungry for, what they want, need, and start to address those needs, as more groups come in, as more folks are exposed and that word spreads and folks do start to develop that, “Hey, when you start here, you’re going to interact with this group and these people, they’ll help you out. They helped me out.” And that word of mouth spreads quickly, has start to perform better and become more engaged. You get more leadership buy-in, just have a general fostering through minimal work. And even as you advance as an L&D leader, if you’re moving from a facilitator to a manager, to a director, to a senior role, don’t lose sight of who your customers are, those new hires, those employees that need your support.
One of the things that we do every time a new group of employees come on, we have an introductory call with the training team. They’re getting introduced to myself and my team, regardless of whether we’re going to have direct interactions with them over the course of the next week, two weeks, what have you. We want to make sure they know who all their immediate corporate resources are. We want to make sure they’re comfortable reaching out regardless of what they’re experiencing, because ultimately, if they feel safe doing that, they feel safe experimenting with things, they feel safe failing, and they feel like you are there to support them in their goal, which is to develop individually, to have that career growth, to have that fulfillment that they’re seeking.
Sarah Gallo:
That’s great. Such great tips there. Thanks everybody for sharing. And on that note, Sydney, Eric and Thomas, thank you so much for speaking with us today. How can our listeners get in touch with you if they’d like to connect after the episode?
Sydney Savion:
For Sydney, it’s certainly LinkedIn.
Eric McArdle:
Eric right here, at LinkedIn as well. Feel free to reach out. I’m more than glad to chat. Anything training industry or even outside of that.
Thomas Fenstermacher:
For Thomas here, you can see me, at TICE 2023 in Raleigh. We do have a session scheduled there, going to be talking about how to build and measure a training initiative from the ground up when you’re starting from less than zero. Beyond that, you can always shoot me an email tcfenstermacher@gmail.com. I do not have a LinkedIn at this time. Sorry.
Michelle Eggleston Schwartz:
To learn more about L&D’s role in the employee experience and to view the highlights from this episode in animation, visit the show notes for this episode at trainingindustry.com/trainingindustrypodcast.
Sarah Gallo:
And if you enjoy today’s episode, let us know. Leave a review wherever you listen to your podcasts. Until next time.
Speaker 1:
If you have feedback about this episode or would like to suggest a topic for a future program, email us at info@trainingindustry.com or use the contact us page at trainingindustry.com. Thanks for listening to The Training Industry podcast.
