Without reinforcement, even the best training programs will fail to drive sustained behavior change. Delivering “sticky” learning programs that encourage learning retention over time is key to realizing the business benefits of training and development.
In this episode of The Business of Learning, we spoke with Elena Agaragimova, a talent development specialist, author and podcaster, and Rachel Walerstein, CPTM, senior manager of learning and talent development for the AIDS Foundation of Chicago, to learn more about learning reinforcement strategies and best practices.
Listen now for insights on:
- The manager’s role in learning reinforcement.
- Leveraging technology for improved learning retention.
- How to create a learning culture in both in-person and virtual settings.
Listen Now:
Additional Resources:
- Conversation Series: Making Learning Stick
- Article: Why Post-Training Reinforcement Can’t Be Overlooked
- Article: Making Learning Stick — 5 Practical Best Practices
The transcript for this episode follows:
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[Speaker 1]
Welcome to the Business of Learning, the learning leader’s podcast from Training Industry.
Sarah Gallo:
Hi. Welcome back to The Business of Learning. I’m Sarah Gallo, senior editor here at Training Industry.
Michelle Eggleston Schwartz:
And I’m Michelle Eggleston Schwartz, editor-in-chief. In today’s episode, we’re diving into a crucial topic for all learning leaders — learning reinforcement. We’ll be discussing how to deliver sticky learning programs that drive real behavior change and as a result lead to better business outcomes. With us we have Elena Agar, a talent development specialist, author and podcaster, and Rachel Walerstein, a Certified Professional in Training Management and senior manager of learning and talent development for the AIDS Foundation of Chicago. Elena, Rachel, welcome to the podcast.
Elena Agar:
Thank you. Good to be here.
Sarah Gallo:
Yes, welcome. Thanks for being with us here today, Elena and Rachel. To get started, I think it would be really helpful if you could each share your own definitions for learning reinforcements. So in other words, what does it really mean to make learning stick?
Rachel Walerstein:
I just have a short definition that I is like a working one for me where I’m always thinking about learning reinforcement as both providing opportunities for the repetition of the content and also integration into the working environment or working conditions that someone is in. So I’m a little bit of a constructionist in that regard.
Elena Agar:
And just to pick up on that, for me, I see it as how can we intentionally, strategically incorporate what people are learning into the day-to-day. So I focus a lot on actually working with managers to make sure that they are helping their team incorporate intentionally. I think that’s what I see is the biggest missing piece and learning reinforcements. And so for me, I focused a lot on the manager. How are managers making sure that this happens?
Michelle Eggleston Schwartz:
Definitely that intentionality. I like piece, being intentional about the training… and kind of all the steps that follow. Why do you think it’s so important for busy learning leaders to prioritize learning reinforcement efforts?
Elena Agar:
Well, just bottom line is otherwise it’s just a waste of time. Otherwise, you’re wasting time and money, right, and resources. And furthermore, not to be extreme, but at the end of the day it will depend on whether your business survives or not, is how much your people are learning, unlearning, growing, and if you’re not prioritizing that as a leader, you’re potentially putting your business at risk as well.
Rachel Walerstein:
Yeah, the first thing that always comes to mind is why would you invest the time and resources, right, especially the time because time in the nonprofit space is perhaps one of our most precious commodities. But one of the other things I think about when you ask this question is training and development opportunities, especially for people engaged in knowledge work really matter because you’re, especially now with the way AI is giving us opportunities to improve on the delivery of rote tasks, things that can be easily repeated. Really, precious skills are going to be problem solving, curiosity, these things that help you look at the broader system of the problem in order to work through it. And so, aside from why invest if you’re not going to dedicate the time to it, there’s this element of providing space and time for those metacognitive shifts, the metacognition of how do I work, how are the ways in which I’m working need to adjust given the continuously changing landscape of the work that I’m doing. It’s not just in for-profit industries where the pace of change has really rapid [impacts]. In nonprofits, we’re also looking at how the political climate changes our ability to deliver services to our priority communities, how funding processes really slow down what we’re able to do sometimes alter what we are allowed to do at times. So there’s always other kinds of constraints where you have to be able to sit back and look at the larger system. And I find learning and development opportunities to be incredible spaces for providing low stakes practice and doing that in problem solving so that when you’re in those high-stakes moments, it’s not so scary to think, “Well what if we tried this instead?”
Sarah Gallo:
Kind of preparing for those moments that matter is key. I love that. Well, I think it’d be really helpful for our listeners too to hear about your own experiences firsthand on how you’ve both worked to deliver training that sticks throughout your careers in l and d. Can you share a little bit more about that?
Elena Agar:
I kind of been doing a lot of research and experimentation with something that’s not exactly something we think about automatically in L&D, but I am, fun fact, I’m a personal trainer for fun on the side, and so in my work as a personal trainer, I’ve actually on my own consultancy work, I create programs that are combining career development and performance like your physical mental performance essentially. And through this research and just implementing it with my clients and in the space that I work now with the company, I’ve seen that there’s this thing we don’t talk about, which is the basic of how do we feel as on daily basis, how are our energy levels, our mental state, our physical state, how well we sleep, what we eat, what we drink or don’t drink, and so on impacts how we show up in a workplace. So just overall talking about performance, so something I’ve done this summer at Horizon where our work at the moment is we’ve implemented a summer of well-being and we covered all different aspects of well-being. So everything that we’ve done from learning and development units, activities, initiatives, social gatherings was around physical and mental wellbeing. And what we’ve seen is actually people, so we do happy hours for social stuff and this summer we did hikes and we did physical activities and we did games to stimulate the mind and so on. And that’s been really impactful to see that one, people really enjoy that, so more people show up to that actually than our regular happy hours. But furthermore, people are starting to take care of themselves more because they felt like, okay, if you are not a person who typically let’s say goes for a walk and the company’s doing like, Hey, let’s do a morning walk before we go into our meeting for example, that actually has been really beneficial on an individual level. People see more energy levels and so on, and it sounds so basic and it sounds like “Well, should L&D do that?” But I come from perspective of if we want people to learn, we need to help them create space in their minds and environments and opportunities to be better at learning. And that starts with how you feel, how much you move and being a leader in that space. And this is what we work with managers as well. It’s like how are managers practicing that in a workplace to help others do the same? So not just like, “Hey, you have a gym membership.” But [rather], how are you actually doing this in the workplace? How are you practicing? Because if you are performing well on a physical and mental level, you are much more able to then learn your wellbeing is overall just better. So that’s something different that I’ve tried that’s been pretty successful.
Rachel Walerstein:
I’m such a big advocate for that kind of holistic approach. I love knowing that you were able to lead that. I agree with you. I certainly think it’s not [only] physical wellness. Mental wellness is not outside the realm of learning and development practitioners because those are also important elements of creating safe environments at work. So kudos. I love it. It’s similar to what I was thinking about with this question too, which is that technology interventions are not always the answer. If anything, they can actually muddy the water and create a little bit more chaos than is necessary. So similarly, I have been thinking very much so in the last year about what do supervisors need in order to feel like they can be the leaders of the learning initiatives? Not me because I’m a one-person team too, so it’s not like I have the capacity to even do those or do team coaching. So instead, I make supervisor guides that provide for especially organization-wide learning initiatives that give them a week by week breakdown of what should you talk about in your team meeting? What should you talk about with your direct reports in the one-on-one, how do you want to follow up? And they can be really small conversations like, Hey, did you complete this portion yet? What did you think? Is there anything you want to talk about to really structured conversations that they’re facilitating and giving them some of that set of tools that we had. We are facilitators as well. I also think to the example, Elena, you were giving, there’s a lot of room to partner on those kind of holistic programs with HR and my role sits in HR, so that’s why I think about it. But even some of the ERGs, so if you’re an organization that has a staff group dedicated to mental wellness, getting them involved in some of that holistic intervention so people can get to a place where they feel good so they can show up to learn. I think you don’t need technology for that. You just need to communicate and ask.
Elena Agar:
I love actually the point you mentioned about technology. I do agree sometimes it just complicates things, which is also, let’s just go back to the basics. Let’s start with that because that is what we need. The reason we’re in organizations, some of the struggles that we see is that people are overwhelmed. I’m in tech, I work for a small tech firm and what I hear from my colleagues and whether you’re in tech or not and just different, we’re so overwhelmed we have more information coming our way with generative ai. There’s more to learn more to do, and I feel like it’s just calming all of that down by taking it to the basics that we were discussing. That’s a field we don’t give enough attention to. We focus so much on all these other innovations and technology and what tools can be used, but it’s like let’s not forget about the basics, which often we forget about, which is the root of everything. Otherwise we’re just slapping a bandaid on a broken leg.
Michelle Eggleston Schwartz:
I love that. I love the idea of taking this holistic approach and to employees and wellness and really help them to become better learners, as you said Elena. And so kind of addressing all those different aspects that employees when they come to the workplace and to help them be successful in their and giving the supervisors those guides, like you mentioned, Rachel, is so important. I’d love to shift gears and talk a little bit about how technology can be helpful for learning reinforcement. Are there any particular ones that you found to be especially helpful?
Rachel Walerstein:
I do like technology sometimes. I don’t mean to be grouchy. We are fortunate enough that we do have LinkedIn Learning for our staff and even if we didn’t, I would’ve tried to leverage SharePoint or even our elements as a self-choice library. What do I need to know right now? I think the challenge that maybe it’s unique to the audience I serve, perhaps not, but the challenge that often comes up is even with a platform like LinkedIn learning where they provide and a number of these libraries do, they’ll chunk the videos into short segments. You can complete a portion of the course in five, two to seven minute videos and you should theoretically be able to pick and choose how many minutes you want to do throughout the day. There’s still a challenge with conceptualizing learning in chunks, even though the technology is providing you the framework, people are still looking at the course going, oh, there’s an hour of learning I have to do. And I know there’s a lot of conversation around other kinds of tools that support microlearning that will push out quick reminders and things like that, but I don’t know if those interventions are still able to deliver the message that learning really doesn’t have to happen in five-hour chunks. It can happen in two minutes, it can happen in five. And I’m thinking Elena, about what you were saying with folks in your organization who are tech workers where there inundated by information, by options, and so I don’t know what the right solution is. I think there’s many things to continue experimenting with and a lot of that experimentation seems to be driven by the learner, not by us. So letting them kind of dictate, well, this actually does work for me. This isn’t working for me so much. And then being thoughtful about how many options for them to experiment with that we are either pushing out or recommending. That’s kind of the place I’ve landed in these days.
Elena Agar:
In my work. We don’t, unfortunately, aside from kind of similar to you Rachel, the LinkedIn Learnings and different tools that are just the typical LMSs that are out there. Our team doesn’t seem to be so into those. What they do enjoy what’s been working for us is anything where we can gamify something, they’re all up for it. That’s really fun. We also do a lot of peer learning and live sessions and peer-to-peer learning. That’s been impactful. But what I hear other companies doing is, of course with the virtual reality and depending on the industry in tech, it’s just a little bit different because it’s more of just like hands-on learning. So they’re learning a technology, they’re learning a new way to code, make less mistakes, but actual learning in the technology itself so it’s more hands-on in that space. But I don’t know if you guys have heard about the AI pin that Humane is releasing, which I’m really excited about. So an AI pin, it’s basically a pin that’s going to go right here. It’s still priced at like $700 right now, so it’s not going to be as affordable to many companies and individuals, but I see that this is going to be probably the next level of learning because this AI pin, essentially ChatGPT, personal assistant/all-in-one that’s going to be right here. You can talk to it, it’ll track your tasks, it will give you on the spot answers about things you need to do. It’ll remind you of the learnings you’ve done. It’s the whole thing of the best of generative AI that we have so far in the small pin that is now accessible. I see that being really useful in learning in the future because it’s so individualized and I think that’s the biggest thing when it comes to technology is how can we make it individualized to the person, make it relevant to them, accessible and affordable.
Sarah Gallo:
Yeah, [there are] so many advancements coming out for sure. It can be overwhelming, so I know our team is super dedicated to putting out resources that can help. And again, I love what you said Rachel too, about partnering with your learners and just asking them, seeing what works, what doesn’t work, and iterating together. I think that’s super important and helpful. We’ll be right back after a brief message from Training Industry Research.
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Sarah Gallo:
Well, I want to switch gears and talk a little bit about creating a healthy learning culture across the organization, Rachel and Elena, what tips do you have for creating and also sustaining a thriving learning culture?
Elena Agar:
Again, I’ll go back to the basics that I think [are] missed. Two things. One, ask your people actually what they want to learn, ask what do they actually want to learn versus trying to come up with different topics. And number two, having that communication, like regular communication in general in the communication. I mean the involvement of manager, again, one of the biggest challenges I see whether in the company I’m working with and others that I hear from colleagues is in order for learning to be effective, not only do we need to create that safe environment, but also team members want to see their managers present with them in the learning. So that’s a big thing. A lot of times managers will be like, well go take this learning, but then the manager themselves are not actually practicing that. So I think having that system where the manager’s present, not only does it allow for them to understand what the team members are doing and learning whether they’re interested in a topic or not, it’s more of just being there as a support as a resource, but then furthermore, they can then make sure that that learning is enforced and reinforced. So I think when it comes to just creating that, it really starts with a manager. And this is the biggest challenge because managers usually are so busy and don’t always see it as a priority, but then it goes back to the first point that we were talking about is why should we invest time and resources in this? And having the buy-in of a manager and just the leadership team is essential versus just putting it on the bottom line and having this bottom top approach to learning. I think it needs to start from the top and needs to be maintained there. People get excited about that. So I think just regular communication and having that manager presence and just asking what do people want to learn?
Rachel Walerstein:
A thousand percent, always have always managers leadership involved. We have a couple of different organizational things going on, and also some small team select ones and I invite all the supervisors all the time, all the way up to C-suite, and when they’re there, it’s such a different conversation and also different I’m imagining when they go back to their teams to talk about it. So I want to emphasize that incredibly important. The other thing that comes to mind though, when thinking about what’s needed for robust learning culture is about a skill set and a set of practices that learning and development folks I think could spend some time investing in, which is trauma-informed pedagogies. The world is upsetting right now and people come also from really different places. They come with different kinds of baggage to work. Even if they do their best to leave it at home, whether it’s virtual, hybrid or in-person work, it doesn’t matter. We all carry those things with us and there are really small things that we can do to make safe places for learning. Many of them we already do. For instance, being thoughtful about our lighting when we are facilitating things that set up transparency and predictability for learners that are coming in with all kinds of stuff going on in their lives, whether that’s personal or on a local or even global scale. I also think helping organizations get to a place where they’re making time for the learners. So I have heard from our staff, us pilot professional development time scheduled. I know other places have done this really successfully, but people say they want the time, they don’t know how to make the time. The pressure of the work to be done always precedes the desire to learn. And so just creating a community norm we’re going to learn today can actually, I think free up a lot of space, cognitively, socially, et cetera, for people to start engaging in those behaviors that will eventually create that robust learning culture.
Sarah Gallo:
Such great points and recommendations there. I do want to kind of piggyback on that question too and see if this looks any different in a virtual environment and with learning reinforcement specifically, how can we make sure that is effective for remote learners?
Elena Agar:
Something that we do is, as I mentioned before, is the peer learning piece. And I think, I don’t know Rachel how you feel, but being the person who delivers the training, facilitates the training and all that, sometimes people just want to see a different face, and so learning from one another tends to work really well with us. I also utilize a lot of external practitioners to come and deliver on a topic, whatever topic they’re speak on, and so that’s been really impactful because I think it’s just giving them diversity of people delivering the training, especially if you’re like a one-woman show for example, that’s powerful. Peer learning has been super impactful. We do this thing where it’s a working group, so we have a working group for our tech talent and one person volunteers every month and they deliver a session about a really cool thing they’ve discovered in the world of coding, for example, and that seems to be very engaging and it’s usually very high attended consistently over the years. Our techies love that. Something we do with the recruitment team is we do weekly learnings. Basically each recruiter will kind of rotate and weekly discuss what can we do better as a recruitment team, what can we do different? They’ll present research and really in small 10-15 minute information to sharing and then we discuss it. Do we want to take action on it or is it something maybe we consider in the future? I think that helps a lot because they’re more engaged to begin with. They’re interested, they’re excited to be there, so they’re mentally present there versus like, “Here we go! Elena got another topic for us today.” And so on. So they know that it’s a peer delivering it or just somebody they’re excited about nothing. That’s pretty standard. So I think diversifying who delivers the training sets the tone for the training and learning a little bit differently. And so that’s something that we’ve tried that works quite well.
Rachel Walerstein:
Yeah, peer learning is also where I’ve been focused for us as a hybrid space, especially with our supervisors, it’s been productive to get them together so that they’re seeing themselves also as a team of supervisors that they can turn to and rely on. So we do a monthly group, I call it supervisor discussion group, and they come together. We talk a little bit about best practices. We leave some time to troubleshoot together. They can ask questions of one another. We use it as a space to deliver any updates of, “Hey, don’t forget to tell your team about this thing.” For instance, open enrollment, don’t forget to remind them to enroll, that kind of stuff. And that’s been very productive. The other thing that I’m working on that I heard about someone else doing is using Microsoft teams to create channels for different kinds of roles. So I’m working out the final logistics of it, but the setup is straightforward enough on teams just to create a space that’s right in their pocket or right on their desktop where they can share something they came across or ask a question or check in on something and really trying to better define what that particular tool is for because that is an important piece of the virtual or hybrid space too, is if we’re going to lean on the tools for communicating, have we set up definitions for which tool is for communicating? And sometimes that I think for a lot of places has been lost. They’re just like, here’s everything that you can communicate with and that creates more chaos than it helps. So trying to get teams to do what it’s supposed to do I think will be a really exciting experiment that I have no outcomes to report on yet, but it’s something that I’ll be launching in the next couple months that I’m excited to see what happens.
Michelle Eggleston Schwartz:
Love that. Love hearing what you all are experimenting with. That’s really exciting. As we know, engagement is crucial to training success, and I’d really love to hear what tips you have for creating engaging content that resonates with modern learners.
Elena Agar:
For somebody who’s been creating content for a while, I think I have tried so many different things, failed in many when it comes to an organizations, I think delivering trainings and content, if you were talking about an organization versus delivering for an online audience or even a virtual ones. But I think mixing it up has probably been the most helpful in my work. But what I mean by that is changing the type of content. So part of it could be mixing up between a video, a discussion, a self-work, a question you throw out a lecture. So mixing up all these things being really great at storytelling, and actually there’s a whole arc of facilitation on its own. So making sure you’re not monotone. I think you can have great content, but the way it’s delivered can be awful. Or the tools that you use can be super, not user-friendly or they can be really boring or they can be really clunky. So I think just part of it is the type of content you’re creating, but then it’s how are you actually delivering the content and the tools that you use, keeping it as short as possible in terms of not, this is the mistake I’ve made. I would pack into a training a lot of different things and it would just be too much. It’s just too much. I’d get so excited as a facilitator to be like, “I just want to share all these things!” and so on. But then you realize that the learner, that’s not effective. They might be like, it might be super cool, but they won’t retain that knowledge and we know the retention of knowledge course training is very, very low. After an hour and a week, they forget most of it. So I think personalized it and making it, what I’ve also seen impactful is tying it. How is it going to benefit the individual? I’ve also noticed what really sticks with people lately when it comes to learning just based on many topics, is how can you show them how the brain works when it comes to certain topics? The neuroscientific research that we have out there, the cognitive science that’s out there, bringing that into a learning and a training has been impactful. People are like, oh, first it’s something new for a lot of people. And two, they start to understand why certain things are difficult versus easy, why learning is done in a specific way. So it’s almost like educating about how we learn as well and personalize it to their experiences I think has been also very powerful in my opinion.
Rachel Walerstein:
I’m excited you said that, when I first started in my position, because it was a career change for me. I used to be a teacher and I had wanted to do a session because the role was new for the organization on how we learn, and I couldn’t get people at leadership level to say, yeah, that sounds like a good use of your time. There were other directives that were coming to me, so I feel repowered to fight for this. Again, everything Elena said, absolutely a thousand percent, yes. I also want to spotlight an ask that regularly comes in, which is just for role play, like making space for role play. A lot of feedback that we get about learning content is not that what was covered wasn’t impactful or that they weren’t engaged. It was, well, what do I do now? How do I apply it? And having been confronted with that, I spend a lot of time working with my collaborators on, well, how do we cover the right amount of the content but then build in enough time to practice it? That’s its own sort of delicate balance, especially because the majority of our trainings, arguably all of them, they run virtual. So setting up a teams training to provide space for a role play where everyone can watch. You can’t really do a fishbowl like you would if you’re in person. You could send people into breakout rooms, but then as the facilitator, you can’t provide feedback. And so it gets a little challenging in the virtual space, but nevertheless, we try and build that in as much as possible so that there is some room for immediate practice so they can take it with them. And then additionally, in order to help them know we’re not just going to send them out with nothing, I do provide a lot of materials for after the fact that’s like, here’s what you could say in these types of situations, scripts that they can use to practice with. And that seems to be helping somewhat, but it also, it depends on the content. A lot of these examples I’m describing are for really people-focused kind of trainings, where it’s about those interpersonal skills for technical things that looks a little bit different. I think you have a lot more options in terms of tools that you can integrate, but also building in the real time practice right there in the session, it’s a little bit easier for those [types of programs].
Sarah Gallo:
Such good points. Making that time and space really for learners to practice applying what they’ve learned is so key. Well, Elena and Rachel, we’ve covered so much today. I think it would be really helpful if we could kind of end by giving our listeners maybe a concrete step or action or something they can do after listening to today’s episode to begin supporting learner reinforcement.
Elean Agar:
On my side, I think I would just ask them to keep it human. Remember, you’re dealing with humans and look at how you can incorporate everything we know from science and neuroscience and performance into the learning environment. Don’t spend as much time on the tools. Tools. There’s plenty to choose from. Focus more on actually attacking the core challenges that we have in learning. And to Rachel’s point earlier, people bring to work a lot of different baggage. They’re dealing a lot of different things and remembering that, again, the human in the learning and creating a space in that environment and understanding and communication, helping them learn. So go back to the human and make sure that you are catering to the right aspects of learning versus just creating awesome content. All of that. That’s great, but don’t forget the base of it all.
Rachel Walerstein:
I loved that because we’re a people-first kind of profession. We’re serving people, so keeping that at the focus point is the true imperative. The other thing I’m thinking about too, for aiding that is if possible, putting out a pulse survey to see how teams are integrating learning I version of this, that served double duty for us. We wanted to see how people were sourcing external trainings because we have a lot of people who need continuing education credits or there’s certain types of service work that we conduct where there’s local providers who put on free webinars and things like that. So we wanted to get a handle on, well, where are people going? And to see which platforms they were using to communicate what they’ve learned back to that communication piece and peer-to-peer learning. So it helped us see a little bit of how teams were making time to learn, if at all, but also how they were sharing what they learned with one another through the communication platforms that we have available at this time. I think there’s lots of different ways you could set that kind of pulse survey up, but making it a regular thing to send out I think could be really, really helpful for shaping the way we as l and d folks are planning to approach future programming. It can be a really helpful assessment piece.
Elena Agar:
I actually do want to add one more thing that I think is important is when you take a pulse on all those things that Rachel mentioned, also take a pulse of you as an organization. Are you actually creating processes and systems to help people access learning? And what I mean by that is that you can have all the learnings out there, but are you actually helping people create space in their days or are you packing their schedules 8, 10, 12 hours of work as so often happens in tech, so where they don’t even have, again, going back to the human, you’ve exhausted them. There’s no space for them to do that learning. And the other piece of that is how are you supporting your managers to make sure that they are not only learning and growing, usually the forgotten group, especially the mid-level, the mid-manager, but how are you taking care of managers because they are your key to becoming a learning organization.
Michelle Eggleston Schwartz:
On that note, Rachel and Elena, thank you both so much for sitting down with us today on the podcast. I know I learned a lot, and so thank you so much for sharing your insights with our audience. How can our listeners get in touch with you after the episode if they’d like to reach out?
Elena Agar:
I hang out on LinkedIn mostly. You’ll see you’ll be flooded with content, so follow at your own risk. But I’m just on LinkedIn. If anybody can just look me up, you’ll find me. I’m the only Elena Agaragimova on there.
Rachel Walerstein:
Same. Yeah, my LinkedIn is regularly me sharing a variety of things, especially for nonprofit folks, but not exclusively. So feel free to look me up, Rachel Wallerstein AIDS Foundation, Chicago. Happy to always chat and especially help folks who are looking to revamp what training looks like for nonprofits in particular.
Sarah Gallo:
To learn more about learning reinforcement, visit the shownotes for this episode at TrainingIndustry.com/TrainingIndustryPodcast.
Michelle Eggleston Schwartz:
And if you enjoyed this episode, let us know. Leave a review wherever you listen to your podcast. Until next time.
[Speaker 1]
If you have feedback about this episode or would like to suggest a topic for a future program, email us at trainingindustry.com or use the contact us page at TrainingIndustry.com. Thanks for listening to the Training Industry podcast.
