In 2024, it’s widely established that diversity, equity and inclusion (DEI) is essential for business success. However, many companies still struggle to deliver DEI training and awareness initiatives that make a lasting impact.
In this episode of The Business of Learning, we spoke with Deanna Singh, author and co-founder of Uplifting Impact, a training and education workplace inclusion firm, to learn more about the state of DEI training in 2024 as well as tips for developing and delivering effective DEI programs.
Listen now for insights on:
- Why DEI training and leadership training have more in common than you might think.
- How to build an equitable and inclusive company culture.
- Tips for getting stakeholder buy-in for DEI training.
Listen Now:
Additional Resources:
- Wiki: Diversity, Equity and Inclusion
- Article: The Long Climb: 4 Ways to Combat DEI Fatigue
- Podcast: The Business of Learning, Episode 62: Women’s Leadership Development — Common Challenges and Actionable Solutions
The transcript for this episode follows:
Speaker 1:
Welcome to the Business of Learning, the Learning Leaders podcast from Training industry.
Michelle Eggleston Schwartz:
Hi, and welcome back to The Business of Learning. I’m Michelle Eggleston Schwartz, editor and chief at Training Industry, here with my co-host Sarah Gallo, senior editor.
Sarah Gallo:
Welcome. In today’s episode, we’re exploring the current state of diversity, equity and inclusion training, commonly referred to as DEI training. As we record this episode in early 2024, it’s clear that DEI is not just a feel-good initiative. Research has found that having diverse viewpoints at all levels of an organization can improve key business outcomes. With that, we’re excited to introduce our guest for today’s episode, who’s here to share actionable tips for delivering DEI training that makes an impact. Our guest today, Deanna Singh, co-founder of Uplifting Impact, a training education and workplace inclusion firm, is one of our partners in the DEI space. She’s written several articles for training industry most recently run, the challenge of diversity fatigue, which you can find on our website. Uplifting Impact wants to bridge the gap between intention and action. They offer consulting, training and education services designed for your organization, backed with the knowledge and research needed to build a truly diverse and inclusive environment, uplifting impact beliefs. The solutions for the world’s problems already exist. They just haven’t been heard from the people who hold them. Part of that empowerment starts with access to the knowledge that also exists. They offer valuable free resources on their website to infuse your inclusion journey, dive into podcast episodes, comprehensive blogs, articles, e-books, and assessments, all providing self-paced learning, and insightful reflections. You’ll also find powerful books by Deanna offering deep dives into actionable best practices. Every voice matters, and together we can uplift everyone. Visit upliftingimpact.com for more information today. With that, Deanna, welcome to the podcast.
Deanna Singh:
Thank you so much. It’s always so lovely to be with you all.
Michelle Eggleston Schwartz:
Yes, welcome. I am so excited for this conversation today because as we know in the past few years, there’s been a lot of momentum as well as setbacks regarding DEI training, so I would love if you could share more about the current state of DEI training within organizations and kind of what are some specific challenges that organizations are facing when it comes to DEI?
Deanna Singh:
One of the things that we see with a lot of our L&D leaders or those who are turning together for their teams is really trying to understand how to best differentiate between those who may be really new to the ideas or the concepts and those maybe who have been at other organizations or even in their own organization who have more depth of knowledge and understanding how to make sure, and this isn’t just in DEI, right? This is in any kind of great training that you’re doing, but really making sure that you’re differentiating and you’re scaffolding in a way that’s appropriate for people and where they are on their learning journey. I think another thing that’s really kind of interesting right now is being able to navigate some of the different ways that people are talking about DEI. It definitely has taken on a new life, and there’s a lot of different interpretations out there about what the work is, and so it’s making sure that the organization has a very clear understanding of what they mean when they say those words, when they say diversity, equity and inclusion, or when they say belonging or making sure that they understand what it is and that the people that they are training also understand what it is, because again, there’s a lot of competing definitions and ideologies around what it means and where it should show up in the workplace.
Michelle Eggleston Schwartz:
Great. Diving into how L&D can help support DEI, how can training and other awareness efforts help overcome some of these challenges?
Deanna Singh:
There’s a couple of things that I try to really emphasize, and I think that it’s important to acknowledge, and one of the first things is that when we’re talking about doing diversity equity and inclusion training, our belonging training, a lot of what we’re talking about are the very same things that we see when we’re talking about leadership training. And so I think one of the main things that L&D leaders can do and that they’re really uniquely positioned to do is to help organizations across the organization at every level understand that when we’re talking about these topics, what we’re talking about is how to be a good leader. I mean, that’s at the crux of all the work that’s going on, and so I think making sure that the conversation isn’t coming as like, oh, this is that other add-on thing, right? This is that, as Sarah said earlier, the “feel-goodery” thing. This is like that, right? Instead of that, it’s more like, no, this is leadership training. We want our leaders to be able to lead across our organization in a way that allows for people to thrive and bring their best ideas and feel like they can show up authentically. And so that’s, I think, a really, really key component that L&D leaders can do. The second thing that I will say, and this is something that I could literally talk about for hours and hours and hours, but I will not, Michelle, I will not say I promise. Okay? But the other thing that I would say is that we have to, I mean, it’s imperative for people to understand that what we’re talking about here is not based in morality. If you know how to do these things, you’re a good person, and if you don’t know how to do these things, you are a bad person. I think that there’s been a great disservice that’s been done to this sector and to the space and into this learning because we often hear these kinds of conversations couched. If it’s not said explicitly, it’s definitely implied in the way that it’s presented. When we talk about what this is and what kind of training it is, I really want people to focus on the fact that this is skill building. So kind of talk just into that same thing I was talking about with, we’re talking about leadership here, but also that this is skill building and emphasizing skill building. We do not expect in other parts of our organization for people to be able to come in knowing exactly what they need to do in order to do their jobs perfectly. If we did, there wouldn’t be amazing organizations like ours and all of the wonderful people who are part of your association, it wouldn’t exist because we wouldn’t need it, but that’s not the reality. The reality is that we’re constantly growing. We’re constantly learning. Things are constantly changing. If we could approach this work with the same mindset that we do when we’re talking about finances or when we’re talking about marketing or when we’re talking about operations or technology, oh my goodness, technology, if we approached it with that same kind of mindset and really focus, I think that also would help people understand and take away the onus of like, oh my goodness, I am not a good person if I don’t know this. Into like, no, you’re growing. Our goal is to be better than it was than we were yesterday, so it’s okay to come and to know that this is an area of growth for all of us.
Sarah Gallo:
I love that the comparison you made of DEI training is so similar to leadership training. That’s really true, and I think that in itself can kind of combat a lot of these misconceptions that it’s not needed because we know leadership training is needed. So viewing it through that lens, it really does make total sense. Well, as I mentioned before, we’re recording this episode at the beginning of the new year, 2024. What DEI related topics specifically, do you expect to see organizations focusing on this year?
Deanna Singh:
One of the big things that I think organizations, if they’re not focusing on perhaps should be focusing on, is how to help leaders, especially across different levels. So we often talk about, well, who are your individual contributors? Who are your people managers and who is part of your executive team? But making sure that each one of those areas of the organization understand how this work and the tools and techniques that we’re teaching here really do impact the bottom line. So we’re recording on a Thursday and this week, every single day, so three times already this week, and I’m sure before the end of the day today, I have talked to organizations who have, at their executive level have said to me, in no uncertain terms, if we do not do this work, if we do not get to a place where we can make sure that our organizations are truly inclusive in the marketplace, truly inclusive in how we’re recruiting and retaining people, we are not going to be able to compete hard stop. And so I don’t know that that message or that understanding is always completely clear across all of the parts of the organization. So do the people who are on the ground or who are your individual contributor, do they understand that if we don’t continue to grow in marketplace, if we don’t continue to bring new customers, if we don’t continue to make sure that we won’t be able to sustain this job, we won’t be able to sustain this organization? Do your people managers know, Hey, guess what? We are going to have a very diverse workforce. We already do have a very diverse workforce, and it’s getting more diverse. We’re experiencing more new things, right, more new. So in order for us to make sure that we continue to get amazing talent in the door and that you have amazing talent on your teams, we’re going to have to learn how to do this. And don’t get me started on the executive level, but I mean, if you think about just what the expectations are, and I tell people, this is a perfect example. Every one of us, almost every one of us I should say, is now a news reporter. Every one of us has some kind of little device either in our pockets on our desk that allows for us to share with the world in less than a second exactly what we think about everything. And so as you’re thinking about things like brand, as you’re thinking about things like having that goodwill that goes before you as you’re thinking about, Ooh, how are we going to actually measure against our competitors? As we’re thinking about how it’s easier to get anything from anybody anywhere in the world, not knowing how to do this work and not knowing how to do it well and not having it a part of your authentic brand and your authentic operations and how you show up in the space. I mean, to me, that is a major, major, major issue and a risk that’s not worth taking.
Sarah Gallo:
Yeah, great points. I think another challenge we see here when it comes to DEI training is really sustaining its impact, making sure we go beyond to check the box or one-off program. What recommendations do you have for our listeners on how to sustain the impact of that training?
Deanna Singh:
I think everything that you do has to come back to what is the strategy of the company. So if your training is based on, oh my goodness, we have this amazing person who does this work, or we have an ERG leader who’s so passionate, and so it’s hooked onto a person, or if you’re like, oh, we do a really good job of doing these celebrations and it brings a lot of joy. It’s not to say that those things are bad or that, I mean, those are assets, those are incredible resources for you. But if you cannot connect what you’re doing right in the learning space and what you’re doing with what the goals and business objectives are of the organization, if that ERG leader leaves or if whatever happen at the delivery level, you’re putting your programs at jeopardy. And I cannot tell you how sad it is to talk to a person who’s in L&D. First of all, I know how hard your job is. I know how hard it is to put a program up, get the funding for it, make the time for it, get the buy-in, get all the assessments, make sure it is so much work, and then to turn around and see it disappear. What that’s such a painful experience, and we have watched it happen to many of our partners, and when it happens, almost always, I’d say 99% of the time it is because it was connected to something that was whimsical and not necessarily connected to what the business strategy was. Because once you do that and people understand like, no, this is a core part of what we need to do in order to be successful, it’s much harder for that to get extracted when budget goes. It’s much harder for that to get extracted when people leave. It’s much harder when there’s a certain headline in the newspaper. That’s where it starts to get wishy-washy as opposed to feeling really strong. So I tell people all the time, and it’s one of my number one questions, okay, help me understand the business strategy. Nope, not what the department’s doing. Help me understand the business strategy and then how this is connected back to it. That’s so important, and we talk about that all the time for any training program that it needs to be strategically aligned to the business.
Sarah Gallo:
I want to piggyback on that and ask here, based on your work in the space, what kind of metrics or KPIs or business goals do you see DEI training directly correlating to?
Deanna Singh:
So this is not a question I ever give a blanket answer for, and I’m going to tell you the reason why is because it goes back to what I just said about strategy. There is no one KPI, there is no one deliverable that works across all of the organizations. You have to really know what your culture is. What does your leadership value? What do your key decision makers value? How is budget allocated? And once you understand those things and it’s all connected back to the strategy, then you can determine what your KPIs are. When an organization comes to me with KPIs before they’ve identified the answers to all those other questions, I don’t know really why we’re having that conversation because then it’s just, I don’t know. I could give you a list of 10 or 15. It doesn’t matter to anybody. If it’s not going to change any decisions, if it’s not going to help you learn anything from what we’re going to do, then I don’t think that those are the right ones for you. And so one of the things that we end up doing a lot with organizations is we’ll have people say, well, I’ll say, how’d you get these KPIs? Or Why are you looking at these ones? Well, I don’t know. I talked to somebody else at another company and they were doing that. I’m like, no, no, no, no, no. Right? Because your culture and their culture, there might be some similarities, some overlap, but more than likely there’s not. And so we need to make sure that we’re starting from what’s going to matter in our own organization.
Sarah Gallo:
Yeah, that makes complete sense. Perfect. We’ll be right back after a brief message from Training Industry Courses.
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Michelle Eggleston Schwartz:
I want to shift gears and touch on a common challenge our listeners face when rolling out any training program, which is around gaining stakeholder buy-in and support, which you touched on earlier, how it is definitely a challenge. What advice do you have for our listeners looking to gain support for DEI training in their organizations?
Deanna Singh:
One thing that is a wonderful thing to do is to identify who within your organization are already champions. Sometimes when we look at this work, the first thing that people want to do is they want to call out their executive champions, which is very important, absolutely key to the work and the work getting done. But we often will push people to go a little bit further than just thinking about who might be in an executive seat, because as we all know, all of us who have worked in organization of more than one, there are people who might not have the title, but who definitely have the influence. And so the other thing that we try to do is really think about, okay, who are our champions? Guess let’s definitely talk about from the executive level, but let’s also talk about just who the champions within the organization are, who those people are, really, who helped set the course and can help go before you and sort of lay some of that groundwork out for you. And so identifying those early adopters, the people who are so excited to take your training, who are willing to write a review, who want to do a video for you, who maybe want to do the introduction or want to participate in some way or help do some of the design work, identifying them and getting that energy going even before you are trying to pull in these different stakeholder groups. It’s a very different thing. If I’m in the department, I’m in some other department and I say, oh my gosh, I had the opportunity to work on this and it has been so cool, and I saw the preview and then they did this, and can you believe they’re going to do that? And guess what, we get to go to it next month. And I was wondering, can I take the first group of people because I’ve been talking about it? And that is much, much better, right than, okay, this is the, “Hey friends, this is the 15th email I’m sending you. If you could please, please, please, please, please, please, please respond back.” Of course, we’re still going to have to send all 15 of those emails. I wish there was a world in which we didn’t, right? But the first example is way more powerful than doing that and not having it right? When you send that 15th email, you’re much more likely to get a positive response. And so I just think that identifying of champion and opening up being inclusive about how we think about the idea of champion is really powerful.
Michelle Eggleston Schwartz:
Love that that is so important to find those champions and those people who are going to deliver that message and help support those messages instead of sending those 15 lonely emails like you mentioned out to the abyss. So definitely super helpful, helpful. Another common challenge, DEI training professionals face is around DEI, fatigue and really how to sustain the momentum around these programs. Can you share more about what DEI fatigue is and how to overcome it?
Deanna Singh:
So this is a term that has popped up, and I wrote an article about this because we’ve been hearing it a lot. And one thing I’ll just say is that I think a lot of people assume that this is kind of a new thing. Like, oh my gosh, so I’m so tired and it’s so overwhelming. And I’m like, yeah, I hear you. It’s very real, but it’s not new. The work that we have done has never been easy work. Just this couple weeks ago for Martin Luther King Jr. Day, we always make sure in our home that we’re doing some things to really expand our learning. We’re watching some historical videos and stuff. We have younger children and they were like, oh my gosh, that sounds like, and that sounds like, so here you got an 11- and 15-year-olds who really understand what’s going on, but not in historical context, but very much in a real context for today. Because many of the things that we’re seeing have been here before in some form or another. Now they might feel different, they feel more urgent when you’re in the middle of them. But I think the one thing that I would just say is this is a sector that was built out of being able to manage through really tough things. This is a part of the world and the work that we do is a place that is full of inspiration and of hope. And so the one thing that I just try to remind people is like, it’s not new. We’ve been here before and we’ve succeeded and we’ve continued and we’ve made change, and we will continue to do that. It might look different, it might sound different, it might have different names, it might have, but the work is still going to happen because the reality is, I truly believe this, that we are bending toward being better humans. When you look at the trajectory, we are bending towards being better humans, and that’s what our work is. It’s about our thing internally. We always talk about hashtag human better. That’s really what we’re teaching here, human better. So that’s not going out of style. It’s just not. And you don’t have to look too far to see that. So that’s one thing. Remember, we’ve been here before. This is not new. You’re going to be okay. The second thing is I do think that this work, because it is so personal that it’s important for people to take some space, it’s important for you to have your crew. I have a couple different versions of them on my phone, the people that I can reach out to, Hey, this happened. I’m not really sure, or Can I just sit with you for a second? Or Could you sit with me for a second? Because I’m trying to work through this. Because I do think having that community, a lot of the people who are doing this work in their organizations are by themselves, and if not by themselves, there’s just a few. And that’s learning and development in general. It’s like, can you teach everybody how to do everything better? Oh, by the way, we have 30 million people. We’re going to give you $30 and you get 30 minutes of everybody’s time, and we just need you to do this 30 days ago. So I see you giggling, right? So how do we make sure, and then when it comes into this work around inclusion, it’s so personal. It is so much. And we get into this work because we care so deeply, and it is so much about our identities. And so I do think you can’t pretend like it doesn’t hurt when it hurts. You can’t pretend like it’s not hard. When it is hard. You can’t pretend like it’s not lonely. You can’t pretend like it’s not overwhelming when it is. And so having safe spaces even for yourself, whether that’s inside or outside of the organization so that you can come back to the work with the kind of vigor that you need.
Sarah Gallo:
I love that. So important. And I love the kind of hopeful note we landed on there with “human better.” I love that. Hashtag, I’m going to steal that.
Deanna Singh:
You don’t have to steal it. Everybody has access to it.
Sarah Gallo:
There we go. Well, before we wrap up, I know this is a big topic. There’s so much to cover. Are there any initial steps our listeners can take after listening in to kind of just begin improving DEI in their organizations?
Deanna Singh:
So one thing that I will say, and I say this with a great deal of gratitude and for the work that everybody is doing, one of the things that I see happen in this space more than in other places. I mean, I’ve run on a lot of companies in my time and been in a lot of different sectors, but oftentimes in this space in particular, we put the onus of teaching these tools and techniques and all of that to people who are still in the learning process themselves. And so one of the things that I would encourage you all to understand, and hopefully, again, you understand where I’m coming from with this, but people all day long will say, they’ll introduce me. Hey, it’s Deanna Singh. She is our DEI expert. And I’m like, was there another Deanna Singh in this room? Who are you talking about? And now I’ve gotten used to this idea, people saying, I’m a DEI expert, but I wish I could just redefine or maybe clarify what DEI expert means, because if you’re using it for me, what you mean is that I’m just doing better today than I was yesterday. I’m not an expert in anything, right? I’m constantly learning. I make mistakes every single day. And so I think the one thing that I would just say with, and I know many of you might be coming into this space and Wait, I got to train on this and I’m still learning. So I just wanted to encourage you all that. That’s okay, right? You’re just as much a DEI expert as I am. Because if you have the right mindset, if you have the mindset of I am going to open myself up to continuously, bro, and I think it’s also okay to say, Hey, this is not my area of expertise. I need some support. I need some support. And if it’s not fully developing it or putting the learning journey together, I need some support. And just even getting to a place where I have the confidence that I need in order to get in front of a group. And again, because we’ve moralized this, sometimes I feel like there’s L&D leaders who call me and they’re like, I don’t even know how to tell people that I don’t feel confident doing this. I don’t. And it’s not fair. It’s not fair. And so just want to, if you’re in that spot, you’re thinking that you’re like, you can call us. We’d be happy to help you. Or you can also have the courage to be able to just say, I need some additional support.
Sarah Gallo:
Yeah, that’s so important. Well, on that note, Deanna, thank you so much for sitting down with us today on the Business of Learning. How can our listeners get in touch with you if they’d like to reach out?
Deanna Singh:
Absolutely. So you can reach out a number of different ways, but I would encourage you first to reach out on LinkedIn. I spend a lot of time in the LinkedIn hallways and I meet such cool people there and would love to include you in that. So please feel free to reach out at Deanna Singh. Just look to me directly. Or of course you can reach out to the Uplifting Impact Company. In addition to that, we have a podcast. And we started this podcast because literally we were having the coolest conversations with some of the most amazing people in this space. And I was like, this seems selfish. Other people should also be able to hear from these wise, wise people. So if you’d like to join and learn more and get a chance to hear from some of the leading experts in the field, would welcome you to join us on the podcast. And the third thing is, of course, go to our website, which is uplifting impact.com. We’re constantly, constantly trying to put out information to make your lives easier. I have so much love and respect for the work that your listeners do for the people who are connected to the organization, because I know how hard it is. As a lifetime educator myself, there’s nothing more exhilarating than getting front of a group of people and watching their light bulbs go off. But all the work that goes into getting into that moment is so intense, and so just know I’m rooting for you. You’re awesome. You’ve got this, and I’m just so thrilled to be able to be part of your network.
Michelle Eggleston Schwartz:
To learn more about DEI training, visit the show notes for this episode@trainingindustry.com slash training industry podcast.
Sarah Gallo:
And if you enjoyed this episode, let us know. Rate or review us wherever you listen to your podcasts. Until next time!
Speaker 1: If you have feedback about this episode or would like to suggest a topic for a future program, email us at trainingindustry.com or use the contact us page at trainingindustry.com. Thanks for listening to the Training Industry podcast.
