On-the-job coaching has become a popular topic across the learning and development field and business at large. But what does effective on-the-job coaching look like? And what does training have to do with it? To find out, we spoke with Ronda Bowman, global learning and development leader with HPE Financial Services, and Carolon Donnally, a leadership and executive coach with the Internal Revenue Service.
Listen now to learn:
- What an effective coaching relationship looks like in today’s business environment.
- How L&D can support on-the-job coaching in the workplace.
- How L&D can help leaders become better coaches.
- The return on investment (ROI) of on-the-job coaching.
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The transcript for this episode follows:
Taryn Oesch:
Hi, and welcome to The Business of Learning. I’m Taryn Oesch, managing editor of digital content here at Training Industry.
Sarah Gallo:
And I’m Sarah Gallo, an associate editor at Training Industry. This episode of the Business of Learning is sponsored by the Certified Professional in Training Management Program.
Speaker 3:
The Certified Professional in Training Management Credential, or CPTM, was designed to convey the essential competencies you need to manage your training organization. When you become a CPTM, you gain access to alumni resources like monthly peer roundtables and a full registration to the Training Industry Conference and Expo (TICE). If you start today, you can earn the CPTM credential in as little as two months. To learn more, visit cptm.trainingindustry.com.
Taryn Oesch:
On-the-job coaching has become a popular topic across the learning and development field [and] in business at large, but what does effective on-the-job coaching look like, and what does training have to do with it? To find out, we’re speaking with Ronda Bowman, global learning and development leader with HPE Financial Services and Carolon Donnally, a leadership and executive coach with the Internal Revenue Service. Carolon, Ronda, welcome to the podcast.
Ronda Bowman:
Thank you. Nice to be here.
Carolon Donnally:
Yeah. Thanks for having us.
Sarah Gallo:
To get started, why don’t you both explain what we mean when we say on-the-job coaching. Carolon, why don’t you start us off?
Carolon Donnally:
So, for us, on-the-job coaching is really an opportunity for both leaders and employees, actually, to be able to engage in coaching. For leaders, it looks like leaders receiving coaching from professional coaches, but also being able to be trained to utilize coaching skills with their employees. For the employees, it also looks like them being able to have the opportunity to also get coaching skills and to use that as a peer-to-peer thing. So [on-the-job coaching] for me, [means] when coaching is happening as a way of being in the organization — and it’s kind of happening up, down [and] sideways in the organization, [and] those skills are really demonstrated in different places in the organization.
Sarah Gallo:
Definitely.
Ronda Bowman:
And Carolon, we’re similar in some ways. For us, it is leaders and managers being able to coach on the job, whether it’s coaching salespeople on real deals or working through transactions with our customer delivery teams. It’s that kind of coaching that, obviously, doesn’t happen in front of the customer, but it’s being able to take someone aside or during team meetings to be able to be asking the right questions that are really probing our employees to bring out the best in them, and to bring out the knowledge that they have within them.
Sarah Gallo:
Alright. So now that we’ve defined what on-the-job coaching is, what does an effective on-the-job coaching [relationship] look like in today’s business environment? Ronda, did you want to start with this one.
Ronda Bowman:
Yeah. So, for us, an effective coaching relationship in our business environment today, is one that really embodies trust. It’s that relationship where there’s psychological safety. As a coach or as a manager, you don’t want to be judgmental. And if you’re coaching someone, you don’t want them to be afraid to tell you what they think. We don’t want them to be afraid to fail. We want them to really value the managers and the managers to value the employees. In today’s business environment, we’re being asked more and more to be innovative. We’re being asked to stretch beyond the boundaries that the boxes that we placed ourselves into sometimes. And quite often, we need to really be comfortable with being uncomfortable. So that effective coaching relationship needs to build that trust, to give the employees space so that they can express themselves with their managers.
Sarah Gallo:
Thank you. And Carolon, anything to add to that?
Carolon Donnally:
Yeah. I really love the fact that Ronda [emphasized] that foundation of the trust and psychological safety, and then [it’s also about] really being able to build on the skills of that inquiry-based mindset, y thinking about how is it that they’re having those conversations; how are you using more open-ended questions in order to be able to really tap into those individuals, their experiences and all the things that they bring to the table? I really feel like that’s when you know that coaching is really effective, [when] people both feel comfortable [enough] to have those conversations and even challenge things. I think there was an example that came up today where one of the executives was in a meeting with someone who has received some coaching training; one of their leaders who had received some coaching training. And they actually said to the executive, “I think that we need to be asking different questions. We need to dig down into what the real issue is. So, we need to be able to ask more questions for us to be able to do that.” And so, I think then it morphs into the ability to have those types of challenging conversations that get at the heart of what the issues are.
Sarah Gallo:
Definitely. And going off of that, how would you say that L&D can support on-the-job coaching in the workplace? Carolon, do you want to start us off?
Carolon Donnally:
I think that it’s kind of multifold. And what I’ve seen be really effective is being able to not have coaching skills training be [it] be one-off kind of thing, where it is something that is seen as a part of the very fabric of the organization. So, [coaching is most effective when] it’s not relegated to a one-and-done kind of thing, but instead is something that [just] happens as a continual learning journey for both leaders and also employees at different stages. And so it [may] look like a leader actually getting the opportunity to both experience coaching through professional coach, but also being taught coaching skills so that, then, they can effectively have those kinds of conversations with their employees not only as a performance conversation once a year, but really in those month-to-month, day-to-day conversations. [They have to] be able to utilize those [coaching] skills to do that. So, I think it’s L&D being able to create training opportunities that happen multiple times, and then for them to be able to have surveys that [create] understanding [and ask], “Okay. So, was it effective? What else is needed?” And then being able to base the continuous learning [opportunities off of] the feedback [received through] those survey instruments. And then the last element is being able to provide communications or follow up [activities] that reinforce some of the things showing up as opportunities that come from Level 3 and Level 4 surveys. It would be things that supplement people’s learning [during] the in-between times [of] when there’s training and when people were really just on-the-job doing it.
Ronda Bowman:
Carolon, I agree with you that coaching skills really do need to be a part of the fabric of the business. I think from [my own and my team’s perspective and] from the L&D perspective, we are the L&D team, and we have to demonstrate coaching on the job ourselves. I think about how we are able to help role model what coaching looks like and I think a bit about doing a needs analysis. If I were to sit down and do a needs analysis, I’d begin [by] asking questions. And very often, it’s like a coaching conversation, because the leader or the internal client may have thought they needed something at the beginning [of the conversation], but by the time we get to the end of it, it’s really something very different [that they need]. We’re in a different direction and it has opened up other ideas. So being able to role model that within our roles is really important. And like you mentioned, to have [coaching] built in [is vital]. So if there’s any big programs that you’re working on, if there’s skills as part of that training program, then you do want to build in coaching in to that training program for the managers and the leaders as well. So they know how to coach that skill building once they leave that training room, or once they’re done with that, [in] learning, that there is that continual conversation, that coaching conversation, that happens every day to help reinforce and bring those skills out in employees. And the last thing that I’ll mention is we are in really interesting times right now. [Today, there’s] also technology that provides coaching on the job. So, there’s always new ways to integrate coaching into the fabric of the business.
Taryn Oesch:
Yeah. That’s an interesting point, Ronda, about the times we’re in. As we record this, we are still in the midst of the COVID pandemic. Many people are still working from home. So how are you seeing organizations use technology to bridge that distance between managers and employees and still enable coaching?
Ronda Bowman:
Well, for us, we use Zoom. We’ve been using it a lot. We’ve always [used] some type of video conference [technology], but no one would ever go “on video.” So, it’s a bit of a new phenomenon … now that they’re not seeing everyone in the office we do want to see each other, so people are not afraid to get on to Zoom [for a video call]. But even for our one-on-ones, we’ve been using Zoom [so] you can see each other and read each other and see facial expressions. And one of the things that I think this whole situation has really brought about is [that now] we do not have the fear that I often see in business when we’re coaching, [which is] to ask someone how they feel. This is something that I’ve brought into coaching conversations and training a lot. We’re [often] afraid to ask, “Well, how does it feel to do this?” Or, “How did it feel when you did that?” But now that we’re looking at each other in a time where everyone really truly cares about how we feel, because there’s so much going on around us, it feels like the barriers for asking those kinds of coaching questions are disappearing.
Carolon Donnally:
I would agree. We actually are not using Zoom or any platform where we can see each other. But I think that, like Ronda mentioned, building foundational trust through asking questions like those “How are you doing,” kind of questions and opening conversations up in that way, I think that’s one of the benefits, in a way, that has come out of this. I think that building [a] foundation of trust happens with those kinds of questions. And I’m seeing more of the one-on-one conversations happening or starting that way, and also more of the team conversations starting that way. And I think that it allows people to be more open and it allows people to also, I think, know that people care, and also perhaps be more brave in asking questions and giving their opinions, because they know that someone cares about them.
Sarah Gallo:
Yeah, that’s a great point. Do you have any tips for actually creating that climate where there is trust and psychological safety maybe for teams that don’t already have that?
Carolon Donnally:
I would say it kind of points back to some of the things that Ronda [already] mentioned, [which] was, is the environment safe for people to make mistakes? What happens when an error is made or a mistake is caught? I think that is perhaps one of the tell-tale signs of whether or not there is trust and psychological safety in the environment. If an organization deals with mistakes or errors as learning opportunities, sand really kind of rallies around people to say, “Okay, so this happened. What did we learn? What are some things that we’re going to do differently next time?”
Using those open-ended coaching questions to be able to unpack the situation, I think is really, really important. And being able to help people know that, “We are in this together, and we are going to figure this out.” It’s all in the language, also. Although coaching uses the open-ended questions, I think leaders need to be mindful of the language that they’re using in order for them to really be demonstrating trustworthy language. If a leader is saying to a person, “Well, you, you, you did this,” as opposed to, “What could we do in order for this to be different? What would you need from me?” Those kinds of things allow trust to be more present in organizations.
Ronda Bowman:
I agree with that. One of the things that has happened too over the last few months is that everything’s become a little more casual. Using Zoom, we’re seeing people’s homes. We’re seeing people’s children. We’re seeing that everyone is a real person, including our leaders. And we, coincidentally, this was not planned. We had a program that rolled out about this same time that COVID started and [there were] so many changes going on. And we asked the leaders [create] some videos to help kick off each week for this program. And so now we’re seeing the leaders at home in their sweatshirts, or baseball cap, or [when] they need a haircut. We’re seeing the real person, and the real person is introducing the learning for the week. So maybe the learning is about having a growth mindset, and the leader is looking very casual in a way that we haven’t seen that leader before, saying, “I’ve had to learn to be comfortable with being uncomfortable.” And there’s this transparency that we haven’t seen in the past, that is allowing everyone to get more comfortable with it now, and to open up that trust in that space.
Carolon Donnally:
Yeah. And I want to add something. In addition, one of the things that’s also happened in our organization is leaders at the highest levels are having monthly conversations where they’re opening up the floor to employees and saying, “We really want to hear what it is that you have to say.” And inside those conversations, people are being really vulnerable about what’s happening with them, [whether it’s] family members dying [or] all kinds of really [personal] real-life things. And I think that the vulnerability of the leader [who is able] to be able to not only just ask, “How are you doing,” but also to provide resources for people and them feel that it’s okay to feel whatever you’re feeling [is huge], but also [they have to let them know] it’s okay to take advantage of these resources if they need some additional assistance because this is really difficult and hard for all of us; I think that that’s really an important thing. And even outside of COVID, the race conversations that have been happening, and leaders’ willingness to be vulnerable and bring those things into the [workplace is so important].I think that all of that really begins to open [ways] for trust to be built in this environment that we’re in.
Ronda Bowman:
I agree.
Taryn Oesch:
Like any other skill, as we’ve talked about a little bit earlier, coaching can be learned and refined with practice. So, with that in mind, how can learning and development incorporate that skill into its manager training programs? What have your organizations done?
Ronda Bowman:
So, for us, we began running training programs for our managers back, oh, I’m going to say in 2012, so we’ve been doing it for about eight years now. We, aside from myself, [have] some coaches and certified accredited coaches within the business but we’re really trying to get the managers up to speed, so that they can be coaching [in] real-time on-the-job. And we made a very conscious decision to do this when we were rolling out a highly visible selling skills course. And I think we all know, when you roll out training and some of the things stick, some of the things don’t stick. Some things stick for just a short period of time and then it’s easier to do it the old way. And so we really felt like for the investment, for the need that we had, we really did need the managers to be on board and coach the development of the salespeople and the new process, the new way of what we were going to do. So that taught us a big lesson that, as we roll out a skills-based course, we definitely are building in a coaching module for the managers as well, how to coach this, so that they know how to do it. And then, we took it even a step further. We said, “Okay, so we can build it into that training, but let’s also provide the managers a coaching framework so they can not just be coaching on these training programs, but they can also be coaching [the] development of their employees and it can help them with their one-on-ones [and] their coaching conversations with their team members. So we went through a process of putting together a framework on the “what” of coaching. So, having them think through, “What can we really coach? We know that our business results are given to us. We set our goals. So what we can really coach? [What are] the actions that are going to get us to those goals so that we can meet the business results that we’re being asked to meet. So the framework that we put together [is that] we train the managers to help them understand how they can work with their team members to [recognize the] actions that need to be coached. And then they came back to us and they said, “This is great; we have these actions. What do we do? I don’t know how to have my next conversation. How do I actually coach them on that action?” So that drove us to the next [step]. It naturally drove us into the next section that we had from L&D, which was building a how of coaching program, that then started to take some of those actions that they needed to coach, marry it up with a coaching technique and be able to teach them together and give them some real virtual face-to-face workshop time on practicing how to coach topics and techniques together. I think that that bat just drove us miles in our journey in becoming better coaches throughout. I’m going to say, it is a process. We’re eight years into it, but our coaches have really begun to incorporate it into their daily conversations, and not just when they’re having a one-on-one [conversation].
Carolon Donnelly:
That’s wonderful. And I think that for us, it’s been a different kind of journey, still a learning journey, kind of the same kind of thing that you’re talking about, how we’ve learned and tweaked and innovated in different ways. And I think that it started with us being able to have an internal coaching training program and starting there, really wanting to help individual leaders have that ICF core competency-based training. But then it shifted to us really looking at the leaders [across] various levels and being able to say, “How could we provide them with a framework for coaching so that they would be able to have coaching conversations?” And part of my journey was that I was in L&D and have since actually helped to create and embed those coaching skills trainings into the leadership development programs [at my organization]. But then I actually made a shift for myself into one of our business units in order for us to make coaching real in the business unit. So that then it wasn’t L&D telling us, “Yeah, yeah, this stuff works; you should do it.” Instead, it’s in the business unit and we’re using coaching with technical kinds of conversations. We’re really trying to help incorporate it, yes, into the performance conversations that people are having. But we’re also moving toward, “Okay, so can coaching be also used in a technical conversation where an employee needs to unpack directions of where and what they want to do or where they want to go with certain things?” And we’re finding that’s really effective because it’s empowering the employee [to say], “You’re the one that’s looking at this thing on a day-to-day basis. And so, what are your thoughts as to how you want to move forward with this? What’s getting in the way of you taking that action, asking those kinds of questions for a technical thing?” And I feel like that move, from it being a L&D function into [a] business unit, has really been effective, and we look forward to kind of seeing how this continues to evolve.
Ronda Bowman:
I love that. I absolutely love that. One of the things that I see, too is, you talked about it in the technical realm. And we do a lot of work with our sales reps in how you can ask questions to your customers, right? So what I really find is, the more that we can model coaching with them, the better coaching that the sales reps get [and] the better questions they’re asking their customers. And their conversations with their customers become less of the hard sale [type of conversations] and more of coaching customers through their process as well. So, I do think that it works a lot of different ways.
Carolon Donnally:
Yeah, I agree.
Sarah Gallo:
And piggybacking on that, what advice do you have for managers who are looking to integrate coaching into their daily routines?
Carolon Donnally:
I would say really [to take] baby steps, because I think that what we’ve seen that works well is, first the acknowledgement of the fact that everybody has their advice monster and they really, really, really want to just simply tell people what to do. And being able to not beat yourself up about that. [It’s about being] able to say, “Okay, I’m going to just do one thing. I’m going to take [on] one piece of this,” and begin really working on that. And we actually had an interesting peer-to-peer training that we implemented, where we actually had managers [follow] a peer-to-peer coaching model, where the only thing that they could do was explain the challenge that they were having, and then they were simply asked questions and couldn’t respond. And we wondered whether or not this was going to work or not. We saw data that said that it would, and the result of that was they actually went back and utilized the skill of listening with their employees because of what they experienced. They realized the power of being able to marinade on a question and know that something brilliant is going to come up for you if you just simply give people the opportunity to think and you step back and listen. And so being able to take just that one skill of, “Okay, so I’m going to be really strategic about just listening to my employees. And then from there, the next thing that I’m going to do, is not go with the advice monster, but just try to incorporate just a couple more open-ended questions.” Doing it in chunks like that, where I’m going to ask people more of the question of, “How are you doing? How are things?” Just to begin to build that trust [is important]. So I say take it in pieces and work on one thing at a time, as opposed to trying to grab everything and do everything. I think that’s harder to do when you’re trying to work on coaching.
Ronda Bowman:
Yeah. And I think if I was to be asked a question by a leader of, do I have any advice for them, or should they integrate coaching into their daily routines? I might ask them a coaching question too; something like, “If you were to integrate coaching into your daily routine, what would be the most amazing or the most successful thing that you can imagine could be accomplished by doing that?” And as you said, let them marinate in that for a minute [and] come up with that picture and begin the conversation.
Sarah Gallo:
Yeah, yeah, definitely. And going off of that, what would you say is the actual return on investment of on-the-job coaching? In other words, in addition to helping leaders learn how to integrate coaching into their daily routines, why should they do that?
Ronda Bowman:
Well, it can really be substantial in some of our programs. Once you factor it out, it can [mean] sales won. We’ve seen sales that wouldn’t have been won unless there was coaching done. Maybe we did some team coaching around opportunities that ultimately led to the winning of very big deals. It could be increases in customer satisfaction [or] increases in productivity that are due to more effective business decisions or greater innovation. I think going back to the technical side [of it], and what kind of windows open up for the busines, I think that it can be huge. I mean, I don’t know that I would put a percentage on it, but we’ve seen some big return on investment from it.
Carolon Donnally:
Yeah. I would say those things are definitely impacts of coaching. And I would say some additional things are unintended things; like the ability of a manager or a leader to be able to have effective change conversations with employees, because of the fact that, again, it allows for a different kind of conversation. Where, instead of an individual saying, “This is the change, and so therefore you will do it,” being able to have a more open conversation around, “How could we make this work? What things would you need in order for this to be better?” That innovation piece is really key. I think the other thing that I see is empowerment begins to happen. The manager is spending perhaps a lot of time upfront to be having some of these coaching conversations, but in the longer term, being able to give the person the ability to think critically about things for themselves becomes evident because you’re asking them those questions that help them to unpack it for themselves. After a while, they begin to do that before coming to the leader. So, I think that it allows people to have better solutions because more critical thinking is engaged on both ends — both the leaders and the employees. I think that’s a win-win.
Ronda Bowman:
I think, to add to that too, [is] employee satisfaction. I mean, everything that you just mentioned leads to employee satisfaction.
Carolon Donnally:
Agreed.
Taryn Oesch:
Absolutely. So, the 70-20-10 model tells us that 20% of learning happens in social interactions, typically. And Training Industry research has found that even as much as 25% of learning comes from those social sources. So I’m wondering if you can comment on what role coaching might play in that 20-25% of learning that does come from interactions with others.
Ronda Bowman:
I would say that, personally, I learned so much from others. And I think there is that huge opportunity to learn from others. We’re even trying to shift our 70-20-10 [ratio]. So, we are looking at more of the experiences [and] relationships, trying to give our colleagues those opportunities, where they can be sharing more and learning more from each other and coaching each other more. I think that it gives [employees] power. It gives them the power of being able to ask questions. It gives them the power of listening to each other, the power of collaboration, the power of encouragement. There’s really so much that can happen in those social sources. I think that it’s huge.
Carolon Donnally:
Yeah, I would agree. I think the unintended consequence — for both the person that is acting as the coach and also the person who’s receiving the coaching — is that they [both] benefit. [Coaching is] not a one-sided thing, where only the person being coached is the person that gets something from this relationship. I think that it develops the other person, the coach, because it makes it so that they’re building this self-coaching skill for themselves, and both of them get that from the relationship. I think that the other benefit is really, especially in these times of isolation, is [that it] allows people feel like they’re less alone, and it allows them to then be more open, I think, to learning from someone else to perhaps asking that question, showing that you don’t know quite how to do something. I think all of those things begin to open up because you are feeling more comfortable, because you’re kind of having those conversations that are a little bit more socially driven kind of conversations.
Taryn Oesch:
Those are excellent points, especially like you said, Carolon, during these times of a lot of social isolation, coaching can have so many more benefits than what we normally see. Thank you both for joining us today. Before we wrap up, are there any final thoughts that you’d like to leave us with?
Ronda Bowman:
So one of the things that I think is really important for any company that is looking to implement coaching, whether it’s on-the-job coaching [or] whether it’s more formalized one-on-one types of coaching, I do think, and we both mentioned this, [it’s important to have] a framework and to really set a rhythm of coaching conversations, if they’re one-on-one conversations, and to have that training for your coaches, whether it’s the formal ICF-types of coaching training [or] whether it’s more built in to the learning programs that you’re doing for your colleagues. But I think it’s really important to have that training that allows them to understand what it is they can be coaching and then how they can coach appropriately so that they learn to ask those powerful questions like you were talking about rather than “telling” all the time. Because the asking of the question is really what will open up the employees, it’ll build the trust. It will allow them to shed that fear of failure, and that becomes really important in the whole process.
Carolon Donnally:
Yeah. I think I would say that it’s important for the organization to understand that this is going to be for the long haul. Coaching can’t be something where it’s kind of flavor of the month kind of thing. “It’s really in vogue now, and so therefore, let’s do this coaching thing.” It needs to be looked at as really a shift in the way that the organization is going to be, the way that conversations are had in the organization. I think that looking at it from that perspective allows the leaders and the employees to settle into this way of being and not see it as something that, “It’ll go away if I just ignore it,” kind of thing. I think that that’s really, really, really important. I would also say that the commitment of the senior level leaders to this, not just in word, but in deed, is also really, really critical. We’ve had some outstanding executive champions not only be the voice of coaching being important in the organization but also roll up their sleeves and be the ones kind of doing the work of saying, “Okay, so how can we implement this better? What else could we attach the coaching framework to in order for people to see this, not just as through one dimension, but see it as again, the way of being, the way of doing and having conversations in the organization?” And so I think having those kinds of partnerships with people at different levels, and especially at those highest levels, not only saying that this is important, but actually modeling and demonstrating the importance of this through the conversations that they’re willing to have, both to advocate and also to be champions and models of what coaching looks like, I think is really key. So that’s what I would add to that as well.
Taryn Oesch:
Wonderful. Well, alright, that wraps up this episode of The Business of Learning. Ronda and Carolon, thank you both for joining us on the podcast.
Ronda Bowman:
Thank you.
Carolon Donnally:
Yeah. Thank you.
Taryn Oesch:
For more insights on on-the-job coaching, check out the show notes for this episode at trainingindustry.com/trainingindustrypodcast.
Sarah Gallo:
And if you enjoyed this episode, please take a moment to rate and review us on your favorite podcast app to help other learning leaders find us.
Taryn Oesch:
Until next time.
Speaker:
If you have feedback about this episode or would like to suggest a topic for a future program, email us at info@trainingindustry.com or use the Contact Us page at trainingindustry.com. Thanks for listening to the Training Industry Podcast.
