Resilience is an invaluable trait in both our personal and professional lives. It arms us with the strength and agility we need to overcome obstacles and thrive in the face of change. We spoke with Gavin Sutton, head of learning and development at Ogilvy, and Tricia Inderhees, learning and development consultant leader at the Cincinnati Insurance Companies and an Agile-certified HR and L&D professional, to learn more about training’s role in building resilience.
Listen now to learn more on:
- Tips and best practices for resilience training.
- How resilience can help leaders overcome obstacles.
- How to create a resilient work, and learning, environment.
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Related Content:
- Course: Agile Certification for HR and L&D
- Article: Facing Massive Disruption? 6 Steps to Help Organizations Tap Into Resilience
- Magazine: Agile Learning
- Article: Building Organizational Resilience With a Highly Skilled Learner Ecosystem
The transcript for this episode follows:
Speaker 1:
Welcome to The Business of Learning, the learning leader’s podcast for Training Industry.
Michelle:
Hello, welcome to The Business of Learning. I’m Michelle Eggleston-Schwartz, editorial director at Training Industry and your new co-host.
Sarah:
Welcome Michelle, I’m excited to have you here as co-host here on The Business of Learning. I’m Sarah Gallo, an editor at Training Industry, and today’s episode is brought to you by Traininry’s Industry’s Agile for HR and L&D Certificate course.
Speaker 1:
Business is moving faster than ever before. And organizations are looking for Agile processes and solutions to keep pace. Training Industry’s Agile for HR and L&D certification will help you transform both learning and development and HR practices by creating adaptive and proactive systems of change that withstand even the most disruptive shifts and how we work and learn. Set yourself and your entire organization apart in the market, by becoming an Agile-certified professional. To learn more about the program, check out the notes for this episode, where will Agile take you?
Michelle:
Resilience is an invaluable trait in both our personal and professional lives. It arms us with the strength and agility we need to overcome obstacles and thrive in the face of change. Whether a global pandemic and unexpected layoff, or a sudden shift to remote work, we’ve all experienced the impact of change. And the good news is that resilience is a skill that can be learned. Today we’re speaking with Gavin Sutton, head of learning and development at Ogilvy, and Tricia Inderhees, learning and development consultant leader at the Cincinnati Insurance Companies and an Agile-certified HR and L&D professional. Tricia, Gavin, welcome to the podcast.
Gavin:
Thank you. Hello.
Tricia:
Thank you. Hello.
Sarah:
Great. Well to kick things off, why don’t you both share your own definitions of resilience with us? Trisha, let’s start with you.
Tricia:
Yeah. So, I would define resilience as the ability to continue to develop, continue to learn, continue to find the opportunity, even when things maybe have not went your way or went the way you expected or hoped, but to continue to kind of see it more as an opportunity versus a situation where you might just kind of shut down and quit.
Gavin:
Okay. And so for me, it’s about the ability to bounce back and learn from the struggles that you had during that sort of dip. It allows you to build experience as well, and that experience can absolutely be fuel for you the next time. So that’s how I define it.
Michelle:
Well, great. I really like that terminology of bouncing back, kind of been in the face of change or something difficult. Can you provide some insights on what resilience looks like in both corporate and learning environments? Gavin, why don’t you start us off?
Gavin:
Yeah, I mean, this might be a bit controversial, but I feel that in a corporate environment, you need to have a safe environment that allows for people to make mistakes. Obviously, not terrible mistakes that could cause the business to lose business or to the share price to drop, but just everyday mistakes or learning from challenges that things that haven’t quite gone quite right. The environment also needs to be one that really enables and invites feedback, one that coaching is sort of embraced as well. So managers and leaders know how to coach, want to coach and help people build the resilience up and learn and grow from things that maybe haven’t gone as well as they should do. And it’s also about, you’re not catastrophizing mistakes. So I did, I spoke there about the environment being right. There are leaders and environments where little mistakes can be blown up into massive issues and that only helps people, it doesn’t help people, it makes people go further and further and deeper and deeper into that sort of, “Oh my goodness, I’ve made such a mistake. I’m never going to bounce back from this. I’m never going to learn from it. I may as well not bother coming back to work tomorrow.” Whereas if you have an environment where you kind of go, “Well, okay, that didn’t go quite as well as it could have,” or, “You could have done this sort of differently.” As I said at the start, that builds up experience with people, it allows them that safe environment at that time to think and reflect on what’s gone well, what they can learn for next time and how they can pull themselves out as well. So when you take a bit of a knocking or a bruising, how can you pull yourself back out of that the next day or the next week or whenever it is that you need to. In terms of the learning environment, I was really interested in that question, because I feel, in my corporate environment, in my business, we want to have that learning environment anyway. So it sort of really should go hand-in-hand in my opinion. I think a learning environment and a learning culture only helps people build resilience, because again, back to my point about the environment being safe to make mistakes and to learn and to test and learn. Learning obviously encourages all of that. So I do think they go hand… They should go hand-in-hand and obviously as a learning professional and like, “Yes, you should have a learning culture and corporate environment should be allowing environment as well.” So yeah, that’s how I answered the question.
Michelle:
Yeah. Yeah. I really liked those points about really the importance of culture in the environment and why it’s so important to have for employees to feel safe and really building that psychological safety and your points about learning and development and continuously learning the idea of continuously learning is really what’s going to build that resilience in employees moving forward. Trisha, did you have anything to add?
Tricia: No, I think it’s just agreeing, that psychological safety is huge. I liked how you also pointed out that you can’t just continue to talk about the mistake or make it bigger than what it really was. We also have to be very protective and take into consideration that not every single person will behave and learn and try things the same way. So being open-minded that individuals are going to bring in their own individual ways of doing things and being able to be open to that, I think also really drives resilience as well. And it drives that psychological safety. I too also agree that the way that the corporation acts in the way that the learning and development department acts needs to be extremely aligned, because if we’re saying that it’s the place to learn and develop to grow, to try things out, to apply things out, but then the corporation is kind of saying, “Hey, that doesn’t really align with what we’re trying to do,” I don’t think you’re going to build the resilience that you’re looking for. So I think they go hand-in-hand as well.
Sarah:
Perfect. Thanks for that, Tricia. I like what you said to Gavin, about the importance of really coaching and kind of how coaching can help build that resilience as well. Definitely important in coaching conversations for leaders to be open and kind of vulnerable about times they’ve failed so that their team members feel like, “Hey, my leader makes mistakes too,” so they can feel like they can open up about that as well. Well, we’ve talked a bit about resilience on kind of that broader organizational level, but let’s take a bit of a closer look. Can you both tell us about a time when you’ve had to be resilient in your role and what that looked like? Tricia, do you want to start us off here?
Tricia:
Absolutely. So we have went through some specific changes in our department just probably happened over the last 18 months. So during COVID we also doing virtual, learning and virtual development, as well as virtual work. So part of the resilience has really been able to continue to champion the change, even when folks were sort of, kind of pointing out and coming up with some pretty good arguments to the why we shouldn’t change right now or to what’s the change going to look like and the impact? And really being able to kind of stay true to that first initial reason, mission, vision of why we’re doing the change. So part of what I had to really do is uncover a lot about what these people were afraid of, why they felt like maybe this particular change in how we work and how we, what kind of responsibilities the individual contributors have, versus just the management, having those particular responsibilities, what they were up against, what skillset they didn’t have, what skillset that they think they didn’t have, what resources they think they didn’t have. And so some of this was real for them, right? And being able to be resilient in the face of that adversity was for me to be able to say, “Okay, all of that is real, but it doesn’t mean that I should change the direction that we’re going.” It doesn’t mean that, “Oh yeah, you know what? This is real enough that we probably should stop.” So the resiliency came in the sense of not wavering, knowing that it was causing kind of that uneasiness for others. That’s something I had to kind of overcome that, “Hey, this is going to be uneasy for them. This isn’t going to be fun for them, but stay resilient, stay to the path, because at the end of the day, it’s the best thing for the company. The way that we’re now operating is serving the company the best way.” So, I think that’s kind of one of my most immediate reactions to resiliency, not kind of bowing to the emotions and the worry and the concern of other people, but being able to kind of show that, “Hey, this is where we’re going, and this is what we’re doing, and it’s a good thing.” And really throughout the whole pandemic conversations were different, they were virtual, they were not in-person, you couldn’t really see everybody everyday working. And so a lot of stretching and growing in that during this past 18 months.
Sarah:
For sure. Gavin, do you have anything to add on there about your own experience?
Gavin:
Yeah, I really, I sort of, I was thinking about it there and obviously, I can’t talk about the pandemic and I’m going to try not to talk about the pandemic, but I am going to talk about the pandemic, because I think just totally agreeing with what you’ve just said there, in the last 18 months, I think every single person has learned not just about being resilient, but learned about themselves and therefore, how to be more resilient with all the challenges that we faced and organizations are no different to that too. But I’m going to narrow it down a little bit, just to sort of talk about certainly the shifting signs that I’ve seen with learning development and how that’s affected me and the dips and troughs that I’ve had now, however, to bounce back and think about becoming more resilient myself. When obviously, COVID hit back in March, we had a really brilliant L&D offering. People came to workshops. People wanted to have that face-to-face interaction. We got really great feedback all the time and it was brilliant and it was a real buzz and we recognized our yearly town hall as a team, it was really positive. And then, when COVID hit, obviously the strategy we’d spend the last sort of three to six months developing, it was really sophisticated. I was three years into my role, really understanding the network of the business and how things worked well and what operated and how, and we had to sort of tear it up a little bit, felt like when we had to go into lockdown and change everything to virtual and be reactive, which I hate it. It was unreal, I like being more strategic and longterm and it just became this really reactive churn type of role. And I hit a real low, probably about two months in, because it just felt like the things were being asked for which has been asked for all these answers and all these solutions and all these things. And how do we work hybrid? How do we keep our team motivated? How do we do this? And I was struggling to do it with my own team and I didn’t have all the answers and it was totally new to all of us. And then added to that, we would put workshops on for people to help with this stuff that they wanted answers to and they wouldn’t show up. They’re too busy. Something came up and again, that knocked my sources of energy, my resilience quite heavily. And I think over time, thinking about those bouncing back strategies that I have in my head about being self-aware about like, “What’s really going on here? Why am I feeling this way? How can I be more resilient and be the best that I can?” You just start to sort of unpick it and see it more as a problem. And that’s what I did over the last six months was rather than being negative and upset, that things hadn’t gone quite as we planned, starting to think about, “Well, actually this is quite cool. How do we embrace hybrid working? How do we get under the skin of these challenges that are in front of us, people not coming to workshops?” And started to come up with really exciting ideas about becoming more of a content studio as an L&D function. You’re creating more content, more bite-sized content, less about workshops or a mix. And as soon as that excitement started to come back in, my resilience levels built up. I was better at my job. My team started to get what they needed for me as well, but it took a very long time. And I think the last year and a half for everybody’s been so tough, but what’s being asked of us in our roles as HR professionals and LD professionals has really taken a hit. And I do think now we’re coming out the other side of it, it’s just being aware of what we’ve learned in the last year and using that to fuel kind of what’s next. And I’m really optimistic about the future, but I have been down to the very pits of despair at times as well. And I think, I’ll always remember the pits and the low points for the next time, because it will help me. We will get more challenges, more things will happen and I’ll need to bounce back again. But as I’ve learned so much about myself and the organization in this time.
Michelle:
Thank you Gavin for bringing up those points, because kind of reflecting on those early days, the pandemic, and just kind of how the feeling it felt at times to have to rip up your plans and really kind of move into this reactive mode versus being strategic, like you had mentioned, but now after having some time to kind of take a deep breath and we have this great opportunity ahead of us to kind of reinvent our organizations and our learning and development programs. So I’m really, this is a great opportunity for kind of this next chapter. Kind of with that, moving on to my next question, I’d be interested to hear what advice you both have for other learning leaders looking to become more resilient. Tricia, do you want to kick us off with this question?
Tricia:
Sure. I would probably suggest that to be more resilient and to kind of really practice that particular behavior is to be mindful of when they’re in kind of that moment of defeat or that pit, that Gavin was mentioning. To be aware of the emotions that they’re carrying with them. So kind of just to understand themselves, then I would also really kind of give other leaders, not just in learning and development, but even other leaders throughout other business units and other organizations that are not learning and development-specific just to really be able to take care of yourself. Again, find that opportunity. There’s an opportunity in even those pits, what’s the learning opportunity. What’s the opportunity to learn about myself, to learn about others, to interact with different people. So just kind of seeing it more from a positive standpoint, I guess, is what I would say versus the negative. Allow yourself to maybe go to that darker side for a little bit, just because you’re human and don’t take it out as, “Oh, I got to always be positive.” That’s not what really what I’m saying, but being mindful of how long you stay kind of in that pit and then really just take care of yourself. Take care of yourself, allow others to take care of themselves when they kind of feel defeated, allow that emotion to be visible as well as come up so that you can talk about it. I think that’s the other thing. A lot of people don’t really like to talk about defeat, don’t like to talk about when they’re not doing well. I think some people see that as a burden or maybe it’s taboo to talk about it, but I think the more you do becomes, or the more you allow for it to be talked about, I think you become more aware it. Hey, everybody has a different threshold and it’s not that it’s not our job to be psychiatrists, but it’s really our job as humans and leaders, as well as coaches and partners to say, “Okay, this is a real emotion and let’s kind of work through it.” So be more open to it and what’s causing that feeling what’s causing that downside? And how might you as the person that needs to kind of be resilient, how might you accomplish that? What are the small steps? So those are kind of my thoughts around giving other leaders the ability to think through what could they could do to be a bit more resilient. And again, it comes with awareness being mindful, allowing yourself to see the positive, even when it feels like everything’s kind of negative. And then just giving yourself time to be, to be self-cared for and self-care for yourself as well.
Michelle:
That’s a great point. Gavin, do you have anything to add to that?
Gavin:
Yeah. I thought they were brilliant points, and I’m probably going to repeat some of them, I’ll build on some of those as well, because they were brilliant. I think seeing every problem or challenge that you face as a chance to learn, and I know that’s just been touched on, is really key for all of us. And also, we don’t all have the answers, particularly in this uncertain time and not being hard on yourself about that. The other key thing that I would tell this is the biggest tip I got from a coach once which and my wife tells me this all the time, every day I’m having a meltdown, which is probably more often than I should. She’ll always say, “It’ll be better tomorrow,” regardless of how you feel, this is the worst thing that has ever happened and you describe it to your other half or to someone that is willing to listen and you can see them going, “This is not really a big problem, why are you so down and upset and frustrated by this?” And they listen, because they want to be that ally to you. And that’s been covered already. I think it’s key to have an ally if you can, but just having the night’s sleep, you come back the next day and you kind of think you feel guilty if you’re bouncing back, you feel guilty, because you’re like, “Why did I make such a big fuss of that?” But if you can be aware of that in the moment when you’re in that low point of that stressed or frustrated point where you just feel a bit hopeless, just remember that the next day it will be even if it’s 10% better, it’s going to be better regardless. I think just building on the leadership point as well. I’ve certainly noticed a lot of leaders have got more and more and more tired as the last 18 months has gone on. And a lot of people that are charismatic and energetic normally have been really drained, because they’re taking on so much on themselves. And I think, to the point that’s being made, finding that ally and that person that they can talk to, to unload or just to have a rant, whatever it is that’s needed to happen, who can give them a bit of perspective, I think is key because leaders, good leaders are trying so hard to solve and fix and be there for their teams. They’re not looking after themselves. And that I think is such a key worry for me moving forward, whether it’s a time thing, people having capacity leaders having capacity to go and fix themselves and think about them time, but also that tiredness, if they are tired and not looking after themselves, how does that then reflects on their team members and the business and the people around them? Because vulnerability is one thing we talked about that at the start, it’s really refreshing to hear leaders, share stories of when things have gone wrong, what they learned and that’s great. But tiredness and low energy from leadership is a very different thing and it can be, one is vulnerability is positive tiredness and low energy can be have quite a negative impact. So just building on the point, I absolutely think just make time to speak to people and to share and to have a moan, have a rant, whatever you need to do and know it’s going to be better the next day.
Michelle:
Yeah, those are really good to keep in mind. Do you have any tips or best practices for delivering resilience training to employees? How can we help boost energy levels of the entire workforce? Trisha, do you want to add to that?
Tricia:
Sure. Yeah. So basically, I will say that we did a lot of things last year when everybody went to virtual, there was a lot of different companies that support learning. And we did a lot of mindfulness learning. We did stress management learning. We did some emotional awareness learning. I think in order to really build that resilience, you should offer some learning that allows for people to dig into themselves first and foremost. What we have done as a corporation up until now, which is a positive thing, it’s a good thing, but up until now, we’ve always really been to how you behave as a professional, how you work as a member of the Cincinnati Insurance Company from an insurance standpoint? What does customer service look like? What does professionalism look like? What are management techniques? And based on where we have been in the last year, we’ve started talking about mental awareness and mental health. And I think that as you start to open up some of that conversation in the workplace, you start to get to people’s real, “Hey, I’m feeling this way. I’m going to own this emotion. I’m going to be willing to kind of understand where it’s coming from and why. And then, I’m going to kind of try to fit and just get better each day.” And I don’t know that that was a topic of conversation that was maybe as widely known that you have different resources in different avenues. I think now, every company that’s doing something like that is becoming a little more comfortable allowing for that conversation to happen in the workplace, because we’ve learned that you’re bringing your whole self here. There’s no work-life balance. There’s no, I shouldn’t say balance, no work-life. You’re not a different person when you’re at home, than when you were at work. You might behave differently, but you bring everything with you. So we found some success in just being open to talking about stress, talking about emotion, talking about the energy levels that people bring when they’re in times of defeat or stress and making it a real conversation. So those are some of the tidbits that we’ve had some [inaudible 00:24:41] from. And I think it’s been good for us to be able to be a little more open as an organization with those things.
Michelle:
Gavin, I’m interested to hear in terms of kind of training Ogilvy has been delivering?
Gavin:
Yeah. So, I mean, I think the first thing I’m going to say before I get into detail about some of the training we’ve done, we’ve done resilience training for quite a while actually, which has been great. So we’re really ahead of the curve of mental health and well-being, getting such a focus in businesses and rightly so, as it has now, but we’ve done resilience for a while. One of the big things, I always remember one of the facilitators and she was brilliant at it, saying at the start of the session was, like people going to training for client services or for data analytics, that’s technical trading. If you take in the learning, you will learn, you should be able to be competent at that skill. People have misconceptions, certainly in the U.K., they come to resilience training thinking that they’re going to be fixed, so that they’re never going to be not resilient again. And I think just dispelling that rumor or that thinking at the start, it’s really important for any resilience training that we’ve done and really just flipping it more to coping mechanisms, self-awareness, having those conversations about when it’s happening much to Trisha’s point earlier. And that’s kind of been the focus for us. We’ve had to do a lot of training, particularly around mental health and wellbeing and resilience since the pandemic has started. And that that has been helpful for people. The problem we’ve got is we’re facing such uncertainty, as I’ve said before, and we went into a situation we’ve never been in before. So, when we’ve done resilience training before we had a quite a stable corporate environment we’re in, and working environment, and personal environment. When you add to the complexity of total uncertainty, total unknown of professional and personal future, what’s that going to hold, it does add, it probably doesn’t make the training as impactful as it could be, because we don’t have the answers. We don’t have an settled environment that we are in at that minute. And that is the biggest challenge to resilience really for people. So yeah, I think that answered the question. Yeah. I mentioned the pandemic again didn’t I, sorry.
Sarah:
It’s hard not to, right?
Tricia: I know, it’s quite a big thing.
Sarah:
Just a bit. Well, thanks for breaking that all down for us. We’ve talked about how resilience can help leaders navigate some of those challenges in their roles, whether it’s prioritizing their mental health or navigating times of change along with their team, how can resilience also position learning leaders and their entire organizations for success in the future specifically during times of change?
Tricia:
Again, if I think about my definition specifically about resilience and even Gavin’s being able to bounce back, we talked a little bit about creating psychological safety. I think it comes to just having those open conversations and trainings about what resilience can do for you as a person, for you as a leader for the organization. I think it’s just, it’s going to help people find new ways. I work in a pretty conservative industry. There’s reasons that there’s kind of rules and there’s guidelines and there’s processes. But when you have faced maybe defeat or maybe something didn’t go as you planned, when you have that mindset or that opportunity to see that, “Hey, maybe we didn’t want it to go this way, it went this way, but what can we do to pivot and to feel comfortable in order to pivot and to be agile and to be ready for change?”
When you start to shift the thinking from, “We’ll stop, we don’t know what to do,” to, “Okay. We can still try something else. Let’s just quickly pivot. Let’s change the direction here. Let’s think about what went wrong. Let’s do kind of that post-mortem, let’s try to move forward,” I think you just start to build resilience. I don’t think it’s something that doesn’t naturally happen when you’re having those kinds of conversations. So I think it’s a topic that you talk about, I think it’s the topic that you allow for people to experience. I think it’s the topic that you allow for people to see where success has been had, because they’ve been resilient. I just, it’s kind of again, like the emotional intelligence topic, the professional topic, the customer service resilience is just part of the conversation I think, is how you’re going to move leaders and how you’re going to get people to be more resilient is when you just allow for the conversation to happen. Not just the training.
Gavin:
Yeah. So, I mean, again, really great points. I think I’m not going to repeat obviously, something somebody said, but the whole premise for me, and I’ve mentioned the bouncing back thing and learning from things that maybe haven’t gone to well or experiences that haven’t been the happiest for people. But I think it just feeds in for leaders, for businesses and for individuals, I think we’re going to have a real test and learn mindset, which is actually great. I mean, that’s what in certainly in HR and L&D we want it to be more like test and learn rather than try and come up with the most perfect thing that takes two years to create, and then by that point, it’s outdated. So I think that’s for me, resilience-wise, that’s what we need to kind of, that’s the one core thing we can take from being more resilient is right, this is a challenge like, “Okay, we’re in the real low, this is going to wrong. Great. How do we learn how to be then test and go again?” And all businesses want to be like that. All leaders want to be like that. And it’s just something that I think is really exciting. And I think resilience can help businesses just probably be a bit more agile if I’m honest and not get really worried about things going wrong.
Michelle:
Great. Thank you both for sharing such timely insights with our listeners. Before we wrap up, is there anything else that you’d like to share that we haven’t covered?
Tricia:
I think that one of the things that I probably would say from what I’ve seen pre and post-pandemic, what I’ve done in the learning and development world is that learning and development is all about trying, right? And it’s all about trying something that maybe you aren’t comfortable doing, or you have never done before. And so, I think that my only parting thought and tidbit to others is to say within the business, it’s okay to try something, just like when it’s learning something new. I don’t know how many people ride a bike, but I always kind of relate it to that is that you didn’t know how to ride a bike, but you got on and you got on the bike and yeah, you maybe got hurt, but you got back up, because the thrill of being able to do it, drove away some of the fear of maybe what the hurt and pain is going to feel like.
And I just think sometimes when we get into our professional world, when corporations don’t allow for some of that to happen, you’re going to take away some of that learning, you’re going to take away some of that resilience, you’re to take away some of that opportunity for people to be agile. And so, for corporations, I say, really understand what psychological safety is and what that looks like to the individuals that work for you. Every industry is probably a little different. So I don’t want to pretend that I know about all the industries, but I would definitely say that most of us work in an environment where we can probably try different things and we’re not going to break the bank, we’re not going to take the business down. So I think we just have to kind of allow for that, allow time and space for that. And like Gavin said, don’t make it so big and blow it out of proportion or keep talking about that failure, because that’s when people start to feel like it’s not safe. So that’s kind of my parting thoughts for corporations and other leaders.
Gavin:
Yeah. And again, great points. I think, the parting shot for me is very much learn to be resilient. You don’t just fix resilience. You don’t just suddenly become resilient. And I think, it’s all about for me self-awareness and I think that is both for businesses and for individuals as well. If you’re aware when things are going really well and you’re high on the curve, and you’ve had a great project or a great piece of work or something has gone really well for you, enjoy that, bottle it up, obviously, also weirdly enough, try and enjoy it when it’s a bit low and even when things are really challenging and see it as an opportunity to learn and to grow. And that again, that fits with organizations as well as it does for individuals. And I think again, the final, final bit is the last 18 months, the whole world has been pretty resilient. And I think everything from this point forward, when we get through this pandemic, I feel like we’ll have learned so much, which isn’t by being resilient, which is amazing. And we’ll also, everything should be a bit more positive and we should appreciate the positivity, the freedom that the good things that happen and learn, don’t forget what we’ve learned in the last 18 months.
Sarah:
Those are some great insights. I know a lot of us will appreciate the little things [post-COVID], whether it’s a family dinner that we may have before felt dragged to [before the pandemic], that now we will cherish … On that note, Gavin and Trisha, thank you so much for speaking with us today. How can our listeners get in touch with you after the episode if they like to?
Tricia:
My best way is to connect with me on LinkedIn again, Tricia Inderhees. And then also I’m happy to share my email address. I don’t know if you guys can do that from the Training Industry or if I need to do that, but yeah. Reach out LinkedIn, reach out through email. I’m always looking to kind of connect in and learn from others. So I’m happy to share whatever information is requested.
Gavin:
Yeah. Likewise, Gavin Sutton on LinkedIn. Just drop me a message in there. Add me in. I’ll pick up with you. Happy, happy, like Tricia to have conversations and chat about all of this stuff and more. And likewise, I’ll share my email address with this too. But yeah. Happy to hear from you. Happy to, if you want to have a rant with me as well. I’m absolutely fine, but really open to having conversations too.
Michelle:
For more insights on building resilience and to be the highlight from the episode in animation, check out the show notes for this episode at trainingindustry.com/trainingindustrypodcast.
Sarah:
As always, don’t forget to rate and review us on your favorite podcast app. We greatly welcome your feedback on today’s episode or on anything else you’d like to share with us until next time.
Speaker 1:
If you have feedback about this episode or would like to suggest a topic for a future program, email us at info@trainingindustry.com or use the contact us page at trainingindustry.com. Thanks for listening to the Training Industry podcast.
